Every formation in any army can "move on a fail"... the Blood Angels are prevented from regrouping when they fail, so they're keeping that Blast marker... and also, potentially, getting into an assault while carrying a Blast marker, giving some advantage to the enemy.

Other armies can move, shoot, or regroup on a fail action test, Blood Angels can't.

Very true.

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I think we've all been quite busy, what with one thing or another I haven't had a game of Epic in a month!

That changes tomorrow though! :-)

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It does, but I wouldn't have thought that was terribly out of keeping with how other Chapters use their Bikes. The C:SM doesn't seem to feel they're more than heavy cavalry, but the E:A Rulebook mentions how they carry out vital reconaissance and assault missions, often operating far behind enemy lines. A four week running engagement is mentioned. Not as up to date, but does have the advantage of being in the same game system.

Also, keep in mind that it doesn't explicitly say that other Chapters don't use their Bikes this way (though it is implied). Of course, it also says that the BA have the third-best Bikers in the Imperium.

I dunno. Could go either way. I'd lean toward 'no', rather than yes, if only because we don't really have much basis for how much better they are (after all, they don't get any actual special rules in the Codex - the White Scars and Ravenwing both do/did), but I could see yes.



Oops. Missed that somehow. Mea culpa.

The various armored vehicles don't seem to pay, either, though I admit I can't think of a good way to keep everything incremented at 25 and do it.



Fair enough.



Don't forget to give the Terminators the option for the upgrade.

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A reply to my suggestions would be nice too

The mor ei think about it the mor ei favour that the +5cm speed is only usable for the first move in a given action. So essentially Blood Angels Rhino-chassis vehicles gain the +5cm to all moves but not for the second move during a Double action and not for the second and third move during a March action.

Reason: Even Blood Angels wouldn't cruise around the battlefield with top speed all the time (they aren`t Ork Speed Freeks). They will only give full speed on short bursts eg when charging into combat, quickly changing fire positions, etc. Most of the time they will use combat speed. Exspecially on longer distances.


Re Bikes: I`m not so keen on Scout for these too...

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When I have the time. :-)


I'm keen on keeping the number of special rules to a minimum. We already have two (Some sort of "Red Thrist" and another for the Death Company), three is more than I'm comfortable with... especially if we can just use the basic mechanics of the game to good effect.



The second rationale for Bikes gaining scout is one of in-game mechanics.

Blood Angels are notable as having less Bike formations than normal Chapters, and by giving them Scout their points cost is raised, meaning that they then are rarer, without need for recourse to special limits in the army list.

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Dude, the Death Company rule is one line. I hardly think a third special rule would break the camel's back. Plus, your solution instead produces six new statlines - you're already using the space, just at the back of the list instead of the front. Not sure that's an improvement.

Plus plus, presenting it up front as a special rule (regardless of the actual content of that rule), is a little more user-friendly (IMO), especially for people just glancing through it briefly to get an idea of how the BA work.

In regard to the actual content of BL's rule, I rather like the sound of it. It feels more "short burst of chargey doom" and less "we go faster!".



True, but it might also make them more attractive than they might have otherwise been. I'd say that's something of a break-even proposition - sure, they'll be rarer, but people may be more likely to take them precisely because of their increased abilities.

Had you considered maybe eliminating the Bike formation and turning them into upgrades for, say, the Predator units or the like? Screening formation and all that. Not sure about it myself, but it's an option.

Or maybe offer a mixed Bike/Land Speeder or Bike/Scout formation? To represent them working together? I may like that even less, but my impression from what I read is that (in the current version) they work with other units at least partly because of their low numbers. And it'd definitely be unique.

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The thing is, the Blood Angels *don't* call such upgraded vehicles "Baal" this and "Baal" that; the only "Baal" is the Baal Predator, all the other vehicles have their normal names, not even "Blood Angels Rhino", etc.

If anything, having a "Lucifer Engines" special rule just to modify the basic Space Marine vehicles means you don't need all new Spacecraft and Landing Craft for the most part as well. Death Company can count as Tacticals or Assaults based on gear, and Stormravens can have a note saying that count as "half" a Thunderhawk spot for transport.

That's definitely the way to go for the netEA army book, but as E&C says this is intended for an eventual suppliment, so all datafaxes will be present anyway.

This is a fair point, but again, an army list intended for use in a supplement (Such as this one) must be able to stand alone as much as possible.

For the NetEA compendium, this list already has a special rule, and it shall continue to have one.


If it's a true break-even that results in bikes being rarer but also being a desirable choice, then I'd say that it's a very good solution indeed.


Considered. It wasn't highly popular, and Rug in particular had kittens.


Already possible by using the Fast Attack upgrade.





If the list is intended for use in a supplement (and it is), do you not need to differentiate the vehicles by name from their Codex equivilents?

If it is preferred, a Special Rule could be used for the extra speed... but bear in mind the list is intended for use in a supplement where there will be lots of datafaxes.

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In regards to Lucifer engines why don't you just add 5cm to any movement order? It evens out a bit over a march move then.

General Note: Two replies in this.

Also, Terminators have the 'Land Raiders' option. It should presumably be 'Heavy Support'.

E&C:


...I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something. But how would having it as a special rule make the list stand on its own less?

I mean, it'd make its unit options slightly more similar to the SM Codex options. But that doesn't seem likely to stop you putting them in a supplement. It just makes people more likely to skim that part.



Do you want 'fewer-detachments-in-tabletop-armies' rare, or 'less-frequently-taken-as-a-choice' rare?

You might get A (though I'd argue it wouldn't necessarily be significant - fifty points isn't that much, especially when you get Scout). I don't know that you'll get B.

Of course, I'm not sure of a way to reliably get A, other than blatant overcosting or numerical limitations. Or removing the option entirely (which I really do like, though I could understand people getting kind of upset by it).



I assume you mean the elimination bit, since they are still there as an upgrade.

Could you direct me to which version this was, so I can get the digging over with? The Search function isn't being terribly helpful to me of late.



If you do, I implore you to fight this convention, for it would be a very, very silly one.

I mean, by that logic the Scions of Iron Land Raider would have to be different from the Codex one in a supplement.



Speaking personally, I'd like the list to be more or less the same no matter where it is encountered - in a supplement, I'll expect all the datafaxes and nice little fluff blurbs - but I'll still expect the skeleton to be the same as the NetEA Compendium version, if you follow. Same Special Rules, etc.

I'd say having two different presentations may risk confusion.

* * *

Rug:


OK, where the hell are you getting this stuff about BA efficiency? You've said a lot of things about BA background, most of which I have never seen before in my life (and much of which seems directly at odds with a lot of the stuff I have seen, to boot). I'd like some sources for all this.



Stormravens. For starters.

They can be deployed that way in 40K (which really ends most of the argument). It's an interesting choice which some people might enjoy taking advantage of. It's not particularly more expensive than Land Raiders. And it requires adding the option to take the upgrade to one unit - the upgrade is already in the list.

In short, it adds one word to the army list and better reflects the background/40K equivalent. Hard to see why it shouldn't be done, IMO.



Are they really worth 225? Because if they're not and they're going to be overcosted just 'cause, it makes just as much sense to take them out entirely.

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