I do however see the 15cm all hatred as better than the 30cm some hatred, as it doesn't penalise specific builds as much, so leads to less strategic list writing and so more decisions at a tactical level.

Mostly I only like it more because it makes the rule even less prevalent than before so will encourage multi-god lists, which means more list variety which is a good thing. Removing the rule altogether and fixing the cost issues would still be my first choice.

40k is the game of "who can write the best list", not epic.

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I actually like Morgan's suggestion with the increase of Blast Markers for failed activations and the lowering of Blast Marker removal. It has an effect but it's not as drastic as changing the Activation Value of a formation.

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Have either of these armies actually been tried in play?

Orks can do the same thing:

6 Warbands + 2 Stormboyz + 12 Gunzmobs = 20 activations

Marines:

20 Scouts Detachments = 20 activations

Steel Legion:

6 Infantry Companies + 12 Sentinels + 2 Thunderbolts = 20 activations

Eldar might even be the "worst":

6 Guardian Warhosts + 18 4-Rangers + 1 Nightwing = 25 activations!!!


What makes the Cultists' ability to take a lot of activations so much worse than other armies?

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Well the problem is with list design, and that is it. Attention should be given to how the LatD attain IG allies and restricting this a little more - no idea how as I have not spent the time to think about it.

As for Factions, would removing the rule altogether have any impact? I would think not. Honestly, if you are not going to keep the rule as it was for old time flavour, then it should be removed altogether. Factions is not going to have an impact on list strength. The problem lies with the selection of the forces.

As Zombo implies, the review of the Factions rule to an 'all hated' aspect is a "curtain" for the real issues with the list.  

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People appear to have an issue with it, and really, playing against 20 activations is not fun. Yet that is not the question for this thread. It has been stated that LatD is overpowered and that changing the Factions rule will fix that a little bit.

I am yet to see any evidence or examples where this will be the case.  

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The common conception is that Lone of the reasons LatD is overpowered is because of "Coven spam", yet most armies can produce similar "spam" lists, so what is different about the Cultists that this is such a problem?

What else are people seeing as "overpowered" in the Cultist army?

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Sheer numbers of models. Coverns have an extremely cheap points/per model ratio, so unlike other popcorn armies the formations aren't small and easily breakable. Basically it's spamming a large formation instead of a small one.

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Now that is good information.

Would giving them the "free" Daemonic Pact and upping their points to 250 or so solve that?

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Currently they have Daemonic Pact, although I think the plan is to remove it.

50 points for daemonic pact is a little steep IMO.

Before such dithering, it has to be decided whether 15 covens is an issue. If the answer is yes, then look for ways to re-cost. If 15 Covens is not a problem, then go down the route of fixing the list design and how supports are purchased.

Placing an arbitrary cost is not going to 'fix' the list totally.

Don't get me wrong however, 250 points (or even 225 points) for a base core unit appears correct. It would be good to have a little more thought process about it. I would be fine with 225 base cost including Daemonic Pact.    

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That's how much is cost in the "older" version: Coven 200 points + Daemonic Pact 25 points, Steve54 gave it to them for "free", I assume as a balance to the changed Factions rule.

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Well, what are these other issues, I've only seen "spam" listed as a main problem.

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So +25 points for -1 initiative? No thank you.  

The fact that you would have to pay a base cost of 225 points and not have it as a choice is enough of a restriction.

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Exactly. So why are we looking at changing the factions rule?

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The change in the Faction rule isn't about "balancing the list", per se, it's mainly about the above, that is, "flavour".

Now, instead of playing verbal "gotcha" games, Frogbear, why not contribute?  

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There are 4 basic requirements for a popcorn list to work. You have to have the first two and at least one of the last two:

1) ability for most formations to place BMs
2) versatility in target selection, from range or speed or combination
3a - offense) good firepower or assault ability
3b - defense) durability

On top of the cheap cultists, cheap Land Transporters actually bring the points/unit ratio down, increase the speed for good target selection, add firepower and even as LVs probably add durability overall.  That's all the ingredients in 250 point formations.

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