Yes, that's what I was explaining, as I thought that's what you took issue with. Now, three posts later, I believe I've arrived at your point: Land Raider formations cost too much.

Why do you think they cost to much at 350? What are you trying to achieve with them?

Could you provide a list of all the people that don't field them so we don't take your statement as one big generalization.

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Your costing appraisal is wrong. This was debated earlier in the thread.

It costs 75pts to upgrade to a Land Raider. You're giving up either a Rhino (Devastators), or Teleport (Terminators) to do so. Several people, including myself, cost that at at least 10pts per upgrade, maybe more.

There's also the synergistic side of things that can make costing not an exact science.

Sometimes the cost of an upgrade is cheaper than it's per formation cost, because it's not as effective when used in limited numbers. Or the formation cost is more expensive, because it's able to utilise it more effectively. Gunwagonz in Orks are an example of that.

Sometimes it's the reverse, because the inclusion of an upgrade is way more synergistic than a formation by itself might be. Pathfinders in Tau are the best example of that. Because they're harder to eliminate when part of a larger formation.

But yes, Marine Armour is generally overcosted IMO.

Morgan Vening

The Land Raider formation of 4 costs 400 points.

Spamming it is a non issue. There is really no argument for why the should be that costly, placing a BM? Give me a break!


This is a bad joke. Even at 300 points, the alternative is a full Tactical detachment of 9 units with Rhinos, fast, assaulty, durable, the mainstay and well loved. This is Epic people, why stick to a bad decision that excludes one of the mainstays of the old days which made Epic great?

There was a day when I fielded THREE Land Raider Companies of 10 tanks each. What was the last time when you saw even a single one?

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Yes, marine armour is overcosted, that is my point.



I'm well aware of the princibles of Epic Armageddon thank you, I'm not being patronising to you, it would be polite if you didn't do it me...

Again, I fail to see why this standard reasoning that is applied to other circumstances is applied here when its obviously not working because the units in question are not worth their points. Additionally there are examples where this theory isn't the case and works perfectly well, Hydras are 50 points as an upgrade to a formation or 150 for a formation of three (still 50 points each).

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350, actually. NetEA have revised that already.

Morgan Vening

Still no spamming, no one taking it to place that BM.

The LR is an icon, especially for Epic, and we are doing it a disservice.

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But would you describe them as 'popular' at 350 points? I think its unlikely, and that 'not touched with a 10ft bargepole' would be a better description.

The point remains is that still they aren't hacking it as an independant formation. Even with the mild cuts they're still not tempting. As Irondeath Devestators and Tacticals are far better value (as are landspeeders to add another).

And I think one of the problems is that the units are tiny, so a shadowsword or ork zapp-wagon can rock up and evaporate 1/4 of the unit. ATSKNF or not the formation's firepower is now pathetic, plus they are difficult to justify a leader for meaning blast markers stick to them like popcorn to socks.

Personally I think the best solution is to allow both Predators and Land Raider formations (and Vindicators too I guess) to have Land Raiders as an upgrade. You're not going to get far with 4 tanks, but with 8... you can go kick some ass, and its now a unit worth sticking a leader into.

Its a bit brute force, but solving the tank problem with the application of moar tanks has a certain elegance to it. And no changing of statlines.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

Personally, I think the problem is that marines, who are supposed to be a maneuverable army capable of easily avoiding or closing with the enemy at their leisure, are fairly easy to out-activate, meaning that almost any enemy can popcorn them to death because almost any enemy will have that many more activations without trying, and can thus close with marines at their leisure.  The marines lack the speed to escape or the strength to survive the focused firepower of so much of the enemy's army.  

Good luck fixing that one.

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Marines on the whole work and are a competitive army. That's not the issue. The issue is that iconic units like the Land Raider are non-options due to their relative expense and limitations.

I actually took a formation of LRs to CANCON this year our of a misguided sense of "fluffiness".

It was a mistake. Given the relative points costs, I would have been better off taking Predators instead.

I won't be taking them again at 350pts.

At 75pts per upgrade and formations of four at 300pts, I think we'll start to see a few around, but you won't see vast hordes of them.

If this makes Predators less appealing at 275pts, maybe there's a separate discussion to be had about, say, Destuctors?  ;)

fixed for you

I'd rather have Godhammer lascannons upgraded to AT 3+. But I think we'd sooner see Macro Vindicators before either of these

I really like the Epic UK BT LR Crusaders.

2 x 4+ FF attacks on a 4+ RA unit is quite cheeky, esp when backed up/delivered by a transporter.  It's a lot of points in one air assault admittedly but is freaking brutal and, very capable of smashing enemy titans.

(Our local BT player uses this combo and his templars are developing quite a reputation for hammering titans).

Thats an idea with some promise as well, although I'd be inclined to avoid making them better as I see it more that the expense verus their toughness is the part thats at fault. With a 4+ firefight they don't have bad stats...  they just need to be charged appropiately for what they are.

If the basic formation was 300, and you could add 4 more for an extra 300 and add a character you get something substaintable enough to play like a MBT formation, to get involved and slug it out with stuff. Which is what Land Raiders are for, the Imperiums supreme assault tank... not a sneaky flanking unit.

It does mean that you could get close to playing the IG's own game with tank companies, you're trying hard to do it but you're going to almost match them in some areas (but not range and anti-infantry though). You're not going to beat them at access to tanks but thats fine because you're playing to the mantra of the Space Marines: Jack of all trades but master of none... except maybe air assaults. But you know what I mean?



I disagree, marines have plenty of formations which are cheap to bulk out numbers of activations (bikes, speeders, scouts etc), so thats not a problem in itself. It does become a problem if you try to field things off the beaten track... namely iconic units like Land Raiders and Predators which get charged far too much for attending.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

I agree with Sim to an extent.

It's not so much the lack of activations (my 3000pts list has 10 for example, well within the average 8-12 activations), but that Marines start with so few.

With Terminators Teleporting, Tactical and Dev's Drop Podding, Strike Cruiser on a set turn, Bikes in Thunderhawk, Tactical in Thunderhawk. My activation count goes from 10, to around 4-5.

So yes, the opponent can easily out-activate Marines.

It's not easy but you need to somehow reduce the enemy activation count before you make your big air assaults- by picking off small formations.
Or indeed, launch your air assaults at good targets that have yet to activate.