Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

Formations Off-board

 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Quote: (stompzilla @ Jan. 21 2010, 17:07 )

Quote: 

My current take on it would be...
===

1) A reserve formation may choose whether or not to activate.

2) A reserve formation may rally in the end phase as normal.

3) A reserve formation which chooses to activate must attempt to move onto the board.  Much like a formation obligated to move out of an enemy ZoC or into formation coherency, it must attempt an action which will allow it to enter play.

4) A reserve formation which fails to activate takes a BM as normal for a failed activation.  It has the normal Hold options - move, shoot or regroup.  If moving onto the board is restricted (e.g. ZoC blocking the gate) that option is not available.  Shooting is not available off-board.  Regrouping could be used to remove the BM.


This is the way I tend to see it and agree with this procedure wholeheartedly.

I'm not in favour of regrouping off-board (Aside from end phase rallying) because it does feel wrong and has the potential for abuse.  In the case of necrons, if they have been beaten up, they can choose to stay where they are and Marshall (Like everyone else) Or move offboard and spend the rest of the turn in safety, rallying in the end phase.  If they then wish to Marshall they must enter play by moving onto the board and marshalling, the same as everyone else.  This still brings benefits to the necron player because he can ensure his unit takes no further damage that turn and can teleport to a more advantageous position but at the cost of not being to contribute for the rest of the turn (Which it may not have been able to do anyway - depends how badly beaten up it was).  It's a decision that must be weighed up by the Necron player and the pros and cons assessed - which surely is the mark of a good rule.

Surely you can see how being able to teleport to safety and marshall in the same turn and then entering play the next turn, fully charged up and having spent the previous turn unassailable ready for more is abusive, Chroma?  There's no downside as the unit would have spent the previous turn marshalling anyway and had little to no effect on the game.  With marshalling off table they get this in addition to being immune to further damage, immune to rallying modifiers AND getting to teleport wherever they please.  It is having your cake and eating it - as the list designer so succinctly put it.

Except that a formation may not "Choose", it *MUST* activate under 1.6.1 if it can - so under #3 it *MUST* attempt to get onto the table.

This is a separate but related issue to Necrons rebuilding off-table. If we have to do anything (which I am still unconvinced), please can we do this from the PoV that off-table marshalling is a legitimate action in principle.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:50 am
Posts: 835
Quote: (Ginger @ Jan. 21 2010, 17:29 )

[quote="stompzilla,Jan. 21 2010, 17:07 "]Except that a formation may not "Choose", it *MUST* activate under 1.6.1 if it can - so under #3 it *MUST* attempt to get onto the table.

This is a separate but related issue to Necrons rebuilding off-table. If we have to do anything (which I am still unconvinced), please can we do this from the PoV that off-table marshalling is a legitimate action in principle.

So an Eldar player must activate every Portal every turn if they have units in the webway? Has anyone else played it this way?

I always interpreted "Any formation’s that are kept on the Craftworld may enter play via the Webway Portal" to overrule 1.6.1 (emphasis mine)

Morgan Vening


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 21 2010, 12:33 )

Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 21 2010, 18:26 )

And the counter-point to that is they can't do anything to the enemy either... it's the two sides of the same coin: You can't hurt me/I can't hurt you... how is that *not* balanced?

They get to fix themselves. They aren't wasting turn like the enemy which cannot do the same.

You are forgetting that a Necron formation can heal itself AND shoot at you in the same activation via marshalling.  Or heal itself and move and claim an objective marker.  Or heal itself and contest an objective marker.  Or heal itself and deny you the Hold-the-line objective.  Or heal itself and bring you into its scout ZoC so that you are forced to assault it. Or (fill in the blank).  Those doesn't seem fair either if you haven't played against the Necrons before.

This is just what the Necron do.  And its funny that so many people think its going to be overpowered when -as far as I know- it never even came up in discussion before this thread. The reason why is because the Necrons want to control the board, just like their opposing player.  The only thing that keeps the Monoliths from getting pummelled is the giant formation of Warriors that is sitting in front of it.  If a Necron player is ballsy enough to withdraw for an entire turn and leave his Monoliths stuck out on the board then he is taking some serious stock in a die roll.  Remember Monoliths -once teleported- can only leave if they are shot at, survive, and are broken.

Sure, there might be a 'reserve' Monolith formation that the player leaves behind just for turn 3.  But given the new Monolith formation sizes (and costs) I doubt you will see more than one.  Rare is the player that wants to leave 400+ points in reserve doing nothing and even if they do they are going to have an uphill battle on turns 1 & 2.

Ginger, I responded to your 1.6.1 interpretation on the other thread, but in short it doesn't apply to formations off board.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:56 pm
Posts: 624
Location: Parts Unknown
ginger, on board formations must activate, not off board
why is this conversation taking so long? as neal pointed out pages ago, a formation off board should be allowed to take any activations that would allow it to move on board. the question is if it fails, again why make special rules? it can move, shoot (not an option because off board), or take a hold action.
this should of stayed on the necron page, because that is the only problem, should the necrons be able to remove BMs/bring back units off board


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD
There's no requirement to activate on off-board formation that I've ever seen.  The only requirement is that if you do choose to activate them, then that activation MUST include a move to take them onto the board.

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:56 pm
Posts: 624
Location: Parts Unknown
exactly, so let's move on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (stompzilla @ Jan. 21 2010, 17:07 )

Surely you can see how being able to teleport to safety and marshall in the same turn and then entering play the next turn, fully charged up and having spent the previous turn unassailable ready for more is abusive, Chroma?  

Actually, I don't see it as abusive at all, I see it as what Necrons would do.

And there's no guarantee that the formation will becoming back "fully charged up" at all!  If it's been pummelled and broken by the enemy, there's a 1-in-3 chance it's not coming back next turn; even if it does rally, it's going to have Blast markers *and* lost units to remove/replace.  If it fled through a portal, assuming it arrived via another portal, that's two portals used for one formation.

If it's *actively* leaving the board via a portal, that means the formation is doing nothing on the board this turn *AND* nothing on the board the next turn.  Sure it's coming back on the "third" turn, but that's two previous turns of no effect at all!

Quote: 

There's no downside as the unit would have spent the previous turn marshalling anyway and had little to no effect on the game.  With marshalling off table they get this in addition to being immune to further damage, immune to rallying modifiers

Marshalling *off* the table also means no shooting at the enemy, no moving to support another formation, no holding objectives... that seem like a fair trade for "immune to damage".

Quote: 

AND getting to teleport wherever they please.

They don't get to teleport where they please, other than Flayed Ones, they have to hope a portal bearing unit (or an unoccupied Tomb Complex) has lasted long enough without them protecting it to allow them to return.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
And -as MNB pointed out to me in conversation- all these examples are based on Turn 1 hypotheticals.  Turn 2 hypotheticals leave the distinct possibility (33% chance) that the formation isn't going to make it back on the board for turn 3 (i.e. not holding objectives) and count as destroyed for victory points calculations.  At that point it doesn't matter if the formation has 100% of its units.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Guys, here is the section in full, with the relevant bits highlighted:-
Quote: 

1.6 THE ACTION PHASE
In the action phase, the players take it in turns to carry out actions with their unbroken formations. Each unbroken formation can take one action per turn. The player that won the strategy roll can choose whether to go first or second.

The player going first then carries out an action with one formation, and then their opponent does likewise, and so on until all formations have taken an action. If one player runs out of formations to activate, then the opposing player may keep on activating formations one after the other until all of his formations have taken an action. There are three steps to carrying out an action:
I – Nominate a formation.
II – Declare which action it will carry out.
III – The formation must then pass an action test to see if
it carries out the action successfully.

Each of these steps is explained in more detail below. Note that you must declare both the formation and the action it will carry out before taking the Action test. If you fail to do these things, then the formation chosen automatically fails the Action test without the dice being rolled (we can imagine this is due to a communications
failure). If you failed to even nominate the formation then your opponent may nominate the formation for you.

1.6.1 Actions
To carry out an action, first nominate an unbroken formation and then choose an action for it to carry out. The actions that can be chosen are listed as follows. Note that you must activate a formation if you can, you can’t choose to ‘pass’ unless you have no choice in the matter. Also note that a formation may only be activated once per Action phase.
So, IMHO all formations must activate irrespective of whether they are on-table or in reserve. I have always understood the Eldar 'may' enter via a Webway to describe the general mechanics covering both the notion of different means of entering the table and also the potential for Marshalling off-table to delay entry in the same way that Aircraft may 'stand down'.

However, as I said in the other thread, we are all agreed that formations may elect to stay off-table. The issue is in the mechanics of how that is achieved - whether an off-table formation may Marshall mid-turn or not. Deciding this is crucial to the debate in hand

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
It is easy, Ginger:  We simply clarify the 1.6 rule with an FAQ stating that the rule refers to formations on the board and aircraft (they have their own get-out-of-flak-free card with the stand down order).  Anything off board (portals, webways, whatever) is covered by (insert Neal statement from page 004 of this thread).

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (corey3750 @ Jan. 21 2010, 17:46 )

There's no requirement to activate on off-board formation that I've ever seen.  The only requirement is that if you do choose to activate them, then that activation MUST include a move to take them onto the board.

Actually, there's no proviso anywhere for not activating formations, regardless of their position on/off board.

There *is* a proviso for what formations in "reserve" can do, but that's something in the "Tournament Scenario", not the core rules.

And, reserves are defined thusly:

Quote: 

Units kept in reserve must either be aircraft, or be going to enter
play in a transport aircraft or by teleportation.
Reserve formations
entering play in aircraft or by teleportation should be placed aside
with units that will enter play via planetfall. These formations are
not ‘secret’ and your opponent may inspect them at any time.

...

Formations that are in reserve may not carry out any game functions
or use special abilities they may have.


Aside - This would seem to answer the rallying Space-Marines-evaced-via-Thunderhawk question: No rallying.

Now, the common assumption has been that units in portals are "in reserve", but the Eldar rules don't use the word, but consider them "back on the Craftworld".

It's a *good* assumption, but is not spelled out in the rules, and I think most people do regroup off-board formations or Eldar formations that fail to come through Wraithgates.

If we declare things waiting to use portals as "in reserve", it would mean they do *nothing* while there, no rallying, no alternate orders, nothing.  Only able to move out of the portal or stay put.

Now, I don't think we want that hard a restriction on the Necrons... or they'd never be able to rally off-board!

So, what shall we decide?




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD
Actually the Necron rules specifically state they are in the reserve, befor they come on the board, and return to the Reserve if they phase out or go into a portal.

Which would mean, that there will be no choice other than to have the auto-rally and BM removal for the Necron army restored if they were to be playable... Now that I think about it, it's probably why that rule was written into the orgional army list in the first place.




_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Formations Off-board
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:14 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Again, quoting rules is not going to get us to an answer.  The entire question of whether a formation can/must activate is riddled with exceptions - in the rules, in the FAQs and in the design intent.

Aircraft and loaded troops were given an explicit pass way back in the very first FAQs:
Quote: 

Q: Do troops held off board in an aircraft Transport have to be deployed on the first turn? Or can they come on whatever turn you wish?
A: They can be deployed on any turn.


Obviously, teleporting units in reserve don't activate.

Eldar in the webway have never been forced to enter play.  My memory of Jervis' intent is exactly as Corey has described repeatedly - if you activate you have to enter play.  But regardless of whether "stall activations" are allowed, it's clear that the majority of people have been playing it that webway formations are not required to activate and definitely don't have to enter play.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 164 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net