Before we get into this more, I think we should clarify a bit of terminology.  People are using Rally, Regroup and Marshall in ways that aren't clear.

Marshalling is an action that the formation takes.  It includes a choice of moving or shooting, followed by a "Regroup".

Regrouping is part of an action, either Marshall or an option under a Hold.  It's the "roll 2 dice, take the largest, remove BMs" mechanic.

Rallying is something every formation does in the end phase if it has BMs on it.  It is attempted automatically, not as part of an action.  Make your roll, remove 1/2 BMs, adjust for Leaders.

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"Losing all BMs" is not the primary issue.  The problem is the overall system causing weird interactions.  "Losing all BMs" was a patch required to treat one of the symptoms of those interactions.  The objections to it revolve around the fact that it's just more weirdness piled onto the mechanic, not that it's some sort of root cause.

Also, I've had a problem with the system since long before Raiders went to press.  I made my peace with it.  However, since it is back on the table, I'm laying it out again.  The same is true for many other people, like hena.


That is two regeneration steps - 1 from rallying and 1 from regrouping.  The regeneration overkill was addressed by the "lose all BMs" patch to remove the rally-regeneration.  However, if there were no rally-regen at all, the problem never exists and it doesn't have to be "fixed" with the "lose all BMs" patch.

You're correct that if nothing else changed, allowing Necrons to rally-regenerate while off the board would be insane.  However, that's not the limit of the discussion.  We're talking about all the problems caused by rally-regen and if there is a way to elegantly fix all of them at once.

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Neal

Uhmmm, Neal?  I think we're on board with ya here.
I put your suggestion in the new change doc.  MNB even played a couple games with the Necrons using the modified rule.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I'm on it like a pitbull on a pork chop.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Heh.  I was editing my original post to sound less like a jerk when you responded.

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Neal

awesome

Hopefully using an established mechanic like this will resolve any lingering issues with the Necron rule once and for all  

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

One can hope... or we just opened a new can of worms with the Void shield rules

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-Vaaish

It'll be interesting to see how this works out. Anything that gets rid of the weird love for bms has gotta be good.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'm coming late into this discussion (which I realise is a shooting offense--sorry in advance), but was it considered, instead of applying the special Regroup/Rally mechanic, to just give all Necron units Reinforce Armour?

Just my 2 cents, of course, but, to my mind, applying RA is more in-line with the 40K Codex (which sees models returning almost 50% of the time and in a much shorter timeframe--a 40K turn rather than an Epic turn) and it requires no special rules. It also strikes me as being generally "fluffy" for Necrons.

Happy to be wrong. Just a thought.  

that was their original rule when jervis first wrote the list, but it made them way too hard!

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Surely, then, the solution to that is to achieve balance via increased points costs...no?

Sometimes things can't be fixed with point costs.  "Not fun to play against" is not fun, regardless of whether the points are balanced in terms of win/loss results.

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Neal

yeah.

Back in the day, the Necrons had only a few formations (never more than 3-4 formations in total), and were almost impossible to kill.

Of course, they weren't very effective either.  So it really became a game of you and your opponent uselessly flailing away at each other, and not doing much in the way of actual damage.

Very frustrating for both players, and extremely boring.

if you want to know what it was like, take a Space Marine list, and build an entire terminator army.  Then never shoot, and never use the MW close combat weapon, and see how enjoyable your game is

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

Point taken. I would have thought, though, that the Necron portals would be a sufficient trade-off.

I'll reserve judgement til after a few games. A mate is getting into Necrons, so should have opportunity to test the theory in the not too distant future.  

I had a weird scenario come up not once, but twice during a playtest game this weekend (we're on turn 4, so results are forthcoming).

I tried bringing out my Destroyers during turn two by doing a Retain Advance from a Monolith portal.   Now, keep in mind, they're still phased out and have never entered the board.  I failed to retain with them, and so I assumed I received a Blast Marker, even though they're phased out and off the board.  I didn't feel like bringing them out at that point, so I regrouped to clear the blast marker.  Since I'm off the board, is this allowed?

Following that up, turn three I had a Necron Phalanx phased out and down to a Pariah and two Necron Warriors.  They had rallied in the previous turn, and again, I tried retaining with them, and failed to retain.  As a result of the Hold action, I decided to bulk them up for Turn 4 and regroup, rolling a 6 and bringing them back to full strength, all while off the board.  I got a "I'm not pleased" look from my opponent.

As far as I can tell, by letter of the rule, I'm allowed to do this.  This seems to go against the intent of the list, since Necrons lose all blast markers when rallying to prevent just a thing from occurring.  Or did I do this wrong, and if you fail to retain the initiative you just sit there in Phase Out Land, twiddling your thumbs?

Speaking of Phase Out Land, the new Necron rule states "Formations can return one previously killed unit in the end phase of each turn."  Does this include Necron formations that have phased out, or only units that successfully remain on the table?  We played it "Necrons in play only", but I'm not clear what you can/cannot do while in reserves.

To summarize, while Phased Out, can a formation regain one lost Necron in the end phase?  Also, what happens to a Phased Out formation that fails to retain the initiative, and what are its options?  Maybe I should be asking, while Phased Out, what can a formation do/not do?