+1 for E&C's idea too.

Good idea E&C. But i still would remove the fraction rules from the Black Legion as they are known tofield different factions under their umbrella.
The less disciplined Lost and the Damned are anothermatter. Here i find the fraction rule fits very well as the different factions in the Chaos uprising fight for dominance of the planet as well as for dominance of the various Chaos Cults.

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Precisely - army selection is so that you never suffer from it. If you didn't have the rule then army selection would be different.

For example the army I used last had 2 retinues, raptors, bikes, terminators and scouts - all nurgle. Without the rule I would keep the retinues nurgle, bikes, scouts, raptors would be tzeentch,and the terminators khorne or tzeentch. It restricts you from using the best daemon for each formation.

I do like E&Cs all-hated idea.

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Nothing would stop you doing so... you'd just have to keep hated formations at different areas of your battle lines and intersperse them with Undivided formations to keep everyone happy.

Seems like it would increase the tactical complexity of the game, and decrease the rules complexity, to me.

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Call the all-hated rule "Chaos Divided" ?  

I'd like Factions to stay in the BL and LATD lists. It's very characterful and appropriate to chaos and encourages themed lists while not making them mandatory.

How about two tiers of enmity so Slaanesh gets -2 if Khorne is nearby but only -1 if Nurgle or Tzeentch are?

More? What has hurt it previously?


Nope initiative 3+ is not particularly good... but nothing is stopping you spreading out your formations a little bit... or seperating pledged formations by using Undivided formations between (that being how the rule was originally intended to operate!).


Because the current rule is resulting in a lot of cookie-cutter paired God armies... which doesn't really gel with the background.

The original rule was created to provide character, but in practice all it has done is greatly restrict army selection choice.

Chaos is one all-encompassing horde, not a pair of married couples.  

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I am currently building a LatD army and I would like to see the factions' rule being kept. I have not played 40K in a long time so I cannot comment upon BL changes, but I really disliked the WHFB move to no hatred between different factions. The army lost its fluff/soul (replaced by a weak transition of the Greek pantheon) and became the powergamer's wet dream. I think the rule adds character to the army as it is, and I only think it makes it very hard to field all four factions.

/Fredmans

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I agree that some version of the "Factions" rule should exist, and, again, I support a version that makes it *tougher* to mix various Factions.

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I'm also just starting to build my LatD army, and I would like to see the factions rule remain as it is for them, since, it my opinion, it is consistent with the original daemon animosity between the pairings of Nurgle and Tzeentch, and Khorne and Slaanesh, from the old Fantasy/40K Chaos books of the late 1980s.

As far as the Black Legion is concerned, an argument could be made for removing the factions rule, due to the way in which Black Legion commanders can 'unite' the daemons under their command, but I somehow doubt that you're looking for separate factions rules for the two armies, so on that basis, I suggest leaving the rules alone.

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Just talking from the BL angel I would be for dropping it or making it -1 universally.

Drop it - because the practical effect is a cap at 3 demon princes and the opposed pairs don't work that well together anyway. If it was say Khorne (CC) and Tzeeeeentch (FF) as opposed factions that would make sense.

-1 Universally - now it is having a real effect. Currently its not noticeable at 3000 points. This would make a difference.

BL/L&D - No reason they have to have the same rules, especially if this is a 13th black crusade BL force, which is led by a bloke with the favour of all 4 gods.

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I don't like the factions rule in the first place, and I really don't like it being attached to activations and initiative. The roll isn't granular enough - even a difference of one point makes huge changes across the whole game.

Get rid of factions, or have it affect some other part of gameplay - either by granting blast markers to nearby units with rivalries or not allowing different factions to work together as well in assaults.