In a separate thread.
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From Corey:

What was put what way?  This is a convoluted conversation and I can't follow the antecedents for all the pronouns.  Let me take my best guess at what you are saying...

The Necron Phase Out rule was made to exclude off-board regeneration because people were complaining about mostly destroyed formations coming back on board.


It still seems as if the rally-regeneration is the root cause.

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Neal

Can you explain this to me?  Why does the Regroup mechanism (not needing BMs) cause problems with fixing the Rally regeneration mechanism (based on BMs).
 

I don't follow.  Is this statement supposed to have something to do with fixing or modifying the rally-regeneration mechanism?  Or have you switched topics with this comment?

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Neal

Maybe I should put out some ideas.

As I see it, the source of all the problems is the Rally-Regeneration mechanism.

It provides a direct benefit from retaining BMs.  This breaks a core rule mechanic by making BMs a good thing.  Basically, Necrons are rewarded for a "Price is Right" approach to managing BMs - stay as close to breaking as possible without going over.  In conjunction with the Phase Out full-BM-recovery, it makes the downside for going to far not that bad, which just reinforces the "we don't mind BMs" effect.

It causes special rules for rallying off-board.  Normal formations just rally like normal.  However, when Necrons can sit off-board and use BMs as infinite quantities of regeneration fuel, it demands that their off-board rally have special rules.

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If you drop it you can simplify matters tremendously.  BMs are bad and function completely normally.  The common event of rallying off-board reverts to standard rules.

Of course, that nerfs the Necrons in 2 ways.

1) they don't have a shot at rallying every turn.

2) they aren't as strong coming back on board because they will retain some BMs.

That can be fixed, though.  If Necrons need to be able to regenerate units in every end phase, use a different mechanic.  It could be a fixed regeneration, like void shields, or it could be linked to Necron Leaders or some other mechanism.  Whatever.  There are a number of possible mechanics that could be discussed separately.

If Necrons need the full-BM rally off board to be competitive that could still be done, but it would be justified on its own merits with respect to the direct balance effects of removing BMs, not by the need to control the freaky rally-regeneration effects.  Other mechanics could work for this as well like rally bonus when off-board (because a higher rally chance is not nearly as overwhelming with a few BMs left as with full BM removal).

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Of course, this would have a lot of potential implications with respect to the overall force balance and would require full-on playtesting.  That is problematic so the question is whether it's worth it.

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Neal

Ok, I'm confused again... Doesn't the regroup regen of nec units basically function like the regroup mechanism to regen shields on titans?

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-Vaaish

Void shields also regenerate a single shield in the end phase of each turn, regardless of rally rolls.

For the record, I like Neal's suggestion.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

you must of found that in a really old thread. i've been playing necrons since shortly after the raiders book came out and i don't think there has been many problems (if any) posted here. i know it was thrown out there recently due to the raiders update but no one is really forcing any kind of change.
as was mentioned in a recent thread, the rule is written poorly. removing all BMs off board means no marshalling troops to come back on. so when they do come on board they have to wait until next turn (assuming they haven't been broken again) to then marshal and bring units back.

um.....ok, i just read the other thread that this came from.
as said in that thread, leave BMS and now you will have an unkillable formation. which is not fun for either side.

This is false.  There is nothing preventing them from Marshalling back onto the board under the current rules.  They can use a move/regroup to move back through a portal and regenerate.  Formations that can teleport can teleport back on and Marshall.


The reason for this is the BM=regeneration mechanic.  Removing that is the premise of this thread.

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Neal

it's not false, that's the poorly worded part i was talking about. you can't marshal if there are no BMs
personally i think this is a bit of a distraction. we were very close to ironing out some changes and now we are discussing something that no one (as in not a single person) had a problem with.

Neal, I'm not sure if you are referring this question to me, but if you are I'll have a go at it.  I was trying to explain (poorly it seems) that the Necron rule was designed by Corey to not allow for regeneration of Necron troops while off board.  I remember distinctly a long chain of emails where I complained that you can still marshall and regain troops.  Corey went on to say something about how you can't marshall if you have no BMs, etc.  The rule suffered from the two of us not being able to see the forest through the trees, so to speak.  

The short version is the RAW isn't doing what it was meant to do.  There is more on that in this older thread starting near page 7.



I'm not sure where the confusion is on this if you just read what I wrote above that paragraph.  My logic is this: If 1) formations keep BMs off board, 2) formations are given a +1 to their Marshall rolls, and 3) formations count as destroyed if off board, then Necron players will undoubtedly use the marshall function with great frequency.  Since #2 & #3 are already in the rules, #1 would have a large impact that would funnel through the marshall rule.  It's like using a stick AND a carrot; there is little upside to missing your roll and remaining off board and great benefit to marshalling and coming on with more troops.

Hopefully that addresses the confusion.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Hena, Neal.  You are both wrong and both right.  The RAW does not preclude marshalling off board.  However, the intention of the rule was to do just that.  I stated this numerous times but there are a handful of you that either missed that somehow or not understanding it.  Without that understanding, this thread will go nowhere.

So just to be clear:

The Necron rule intention is to prevent regeneration of troops off board.

If the proposal to keep BMs on the formations never came up, we would need to re-work the language of the rule so that reflected that specific intent.  

However, what was proposed on the Nailing it down thread was that I was going to try playing with the BMs accumulating off board just to see what the net effect was.  There are some nerfs that accompany it (see my comments on the marshalling above) and there are some obvious benefits (regeneration).  

My thinking was that if the net effect on the list was nominal, we should allow the accumulation of BMs off board if for no other reason than to simplify things; one less special rule - or part of a rule if you will.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

(whew! third post)


Neal, that really is the elephant in the room.  The Necrons aren't so far out of whack that they are taking 80% of game wins.  Their off-balance position is in the neighborhood of where the Eldar were before the revamp (55-60% wins if I had to guess).

IMO the little tweaks we are talking about (Wraiths, Monolith formation size, etc.) might be enough to bring that down.  But no matter what we do we still need to re-work the Necron rule because it is inneffective at what it was meant to do (see above posts).

If I had to guess, the regeneration of troops was tied to the marshall/rally functions because of convenience.  That and it is clever.  Adding a whole new action the Necrons had to do was probably considered unwieldy.

I really believe we should explore the retaining of BMs on the formations.  It hasn't been tested, at least not in recent years.  It certainly has never been tested with the auto-rally gone, the higher point cost on formations, or the lower SR.  In other words, the Necron list of today is VERY different from four years ago.  

If it works, the army will not benefit from BMs or being broken, but from successful actions taken (marshall, rally).

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.