This topic will house the latest versions of the Apocrypha of Skaros army list, and any discussion of same.  

The purpose of the list, in one sentence, is to provide a way of representing a more ground-focused Space Marine army which is less-reliant on allies than the current Codex list.  

Enjoy the list, and please let me know of any thoughts or concerns you have about it.

Note: The Mediafire links will ALWAYS link to the most current version.  

At least, so long as I do it right.  ;)

Topic on the Bolter and Chainsword

Topic on Warseer

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The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
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Version 0.3 of the Apocrypha of Skaros, PDF format.  

One page plus one page of supplementary notes and a two page reference sheet.  

Mediafire link

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Version 0.3 of the Apocrypha of Skaros, DOC format.  

One page plus one page of supplementary notes and a two page reference sheet.  

Mediafire link

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Replaced the files with one that lists what the Terminator teleport option actually does.  Also removed all the borders.  The whole thing is now much prettier.  

Still.  Could be worse.    At least I'm quick with my patches.  ;)

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Please explain DC rhino and Prometheus LT better? Where is LR Prom stats? T-Hawk stats?

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Land Raider Prometheus canbefound in the Salamanders list.
The two new Thunderhawks are from Scions of Iron.
The Damocles Rhino ist just a Rhino with the special ability of the Land Raider Prometheus.

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I've played the Damocles Rhino as a rhino, 1 transport space, leader, 25 point upgrade.

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Good to see this

Few comments:
Destructors should have FF4+ IMO, FF3+ is too overpowered for the weapons the tank has. If needs be costs the Destructor very slightly cheaper than the Annihilator.
I think it’s good to have upgrades in non 25 point increments as it gives more control over the points balance.
Not keen on the idea of the Terminus myself, but if you want it in there entirely up to you. It does have a lot of AT fire and could definitely threaten a nearby titan, MW isn’t needed.
I think the demi-company upgrade is a bad idea – the cheaper costs for the formation is enough of a change and this makes formations too large and potentially abusable.
225 sounds a good price for Vindicators.
Tacticals might see more use now which would be great.

The list will need lots of testing to see how it does and to get the various points right, but you’re generally on the right track I reckon.

Having played multiple times against the black templars list, which similarly allows overly large ATSKNF formations I can definitely say that allowing overly large marine formations does make them almost impossible to stop.

ATSKNF is a rule designed and balanced for small formations; it becomes ridiculously powerful at larger sizes.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Two General Comments:

Scouts should be 150.  

The whole massive formation thing will be recosted or eliminated should it prove to be a problem as-is.  

The units currently seem to cost a lot more than they do in the Black Templars list, but if it's a problem things can be easily rejigged to cut back a little on numbers-for-points.  Obvious steps include combining the Vindicator and Predator options, as other lists have done (which would limit the total extra vehicles to two), limiting the number of Razorbacks per formation (likely to a maximum of two - they're not really that common), and increasing the cost of the Demi-Company upgrade (likely to 225).  It can be solved if it is a problem.  I'd like to see how it plays for people, first.  

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Replies!:

Angel_of_Caliban:


The Damocles Command Rhino and Prometheus are, originally, from Imperial Armor II.  They're Space Marine command vehicles.  The Prometheus is common enough that some Captains have them (like Sicarius), the Damocles is more for the Chapter Master and big campaigns.  

The Prometheus stats are in either the NetEA Space Marine List Compendium, or in the Salamanders list.  I feel obligated to point out that the Prometheus in this list works slightly differently, because the method I use to restrict them (requiring a Captain) would mean that the normal ability could technically never be used.  

The Thunderhawk Stats are in the Compendium, or in the Scions of Iron list.  The Troop Insertion variant is the standard Thunderhawk.  

The Damocles actually has two abilities - that of the Land Raider Prometheus and that of the Supreme Commander.  It's supposed to be a very capable Rhino, that really makes Command a lot easier.  It's certainly priced that way.  

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Hena:


I'll likely take out both those recommendations next time round.  Makes judging results all finicky.  The Prometheus one stays, because it's critical.  



I'm not a fan of it myself, but it's the obvious "Space Marine anti-War Engine" vehicle, and there hasn't been another yet.  I wish there was one, cause I'd include it instead.  If you have alternate suggestions, I'm open to them.  



I tried to, then realized that Tornadoes were ten points and decided the whole "25" thing was a sham.  If it bugs people that much, I'll fix it up for the next version.  I find it gives you more flexibility when it comes to options, and helps avoid paying too much for things.  If you pay five points per unit more because of rounding, it adds up fast.  You're paying twenty or thirty more per formation, and that'll mean anything up to about 300 per army.  That's a lot of points.  



Thank you.  Will be fixed next version - I hope just telling people is enough for right now.  



They're priced the same as Devastators, trading increased numbers for less firepower per base.  At 275, I think people'd still take Devastators over them - the shooting is a lot better, as is the FF, and I'm not sure numbers and assault capability would compare (especially considering people's existing preference for Devastators over Tacticals).  



The whole thing can fit on one page.  I just reopened the document, and it does (it automatically resized itself.  It does that sometimes. ).  Admittedly, one more line and I'm screwed, but it can and does fit on one page if you so desire.  The unit stats and notes end up on a second page, of course.  And since the list is likely to get smaller over time, rather than bigger, I think I'll be OK.  I hope I'll be OK.  



True.  However, you also end up with one formation that doesn't move any quicker than any other formation, doesn't have that much range (and if it does, moves more slowly - I should note that Thunderfires can only be transported by Thunderhawks), and tanks your activation numbers.  If it's a problem, cost will increase or the option will disappear.  Also, most are for Tactical formations only - Tacticals need the popularity boost.  

I mean, you could, if you wanted to, end up with a formation of six Tacticals, two Assaults, two Devastators, ten Razorbacks, two Predators, two Vindicators, and a Hunter, with no loss in mobility.  And that formation will be more-or-less-impossible to break, and pretty versatile.  But it costs 925 points, large chunks of it have 5+ armor saves, and it can't hit a damned thing beyond 45cm (except with the Hunter).  It's also going to be a pain to move (physically).  

Possible solutions were suggested above, in any case.  If it's a problem, we can whack it down.  

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GlynG:


Danke.  I try for a little bit of follow-through on my claims.  Sometimes.  Ã‚ 



Two Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon.  That's as much or more firepower than a Devastator unit, and they have FF3+.  Honestly, 3.5+'d be best, but that's not really an option.  

The non-critical recommendations will likely disappear next iteration, anyway.  



Thank you.  I find it much less annoying to end up with 5 points left over than 25, myself.  Which was oddly quite possible in the last list.  



I'd rather almost anything else, but Space Marines don't fight War Engines well without other War Engines.  And since they have one War Engine, which is restricted heavily by this list, the Terminus is just about the only option remaining.  And it is at least a little official, and is even designed for the very purpose of fighting War Engines.  It's a match made in heaven, it's just that one of the partners looks stupid.  

Plus, I imagine I'm not the only one with way, way more Land Raiders than they'll ever need?  



Possible solutions mentioned above.  



That was the hope.    

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In my defense, these formations cost a lot more than the Black Templar ones.  The cheapest upgrade to size is 44 points per base.  

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Thanks to everyone for reading it.  Now go play it!  ;)  

Hope to get in some small games myself with it this week.

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On the other hand if units/upgrades are found to be slightly over/under-powered then this provides greater possibility to fine-tune this to correct this rather than having some upgrades that are blatantly better than others for the same points as is a problem in current SM lists.

Could you include the stats for the Prometheus and Thunderhawk variants in the list please? Saves having to hunt them down elsewhere or have to refer to multiple lists.

Predator Annihilators, Land Speeders and assaults should be methods of taking down titans. A Terminus is only roughly as effective as 1.5-2 Predator Annihilators anyway rather than anything radically different and it just seems a bit surplus to requirements (as well as plain silly - how's it supposed to fire at one target with all those lascanons and their blocked fire arcs?).

Hena:


The Pred Annihilator is a light tank.  A light tank with big guns, yes, but a light tank.  The Vindicator is an urban warfare machine.  Running up and punching things a hundred times your size is incredibly dangerous.  These are options, yes, but it doesn't make sense for them to be treated as the ideal methods for doing so.  

It makes sense for Marines to invent something to deal with large targets, and it even makes sense for it to be a horrifying bastardization of previous equipment.  It just doesn't make sense for it to be so ugly...

[/quote]
You will have couple of 25 point upgrades which will eliminate this. Allowing a lot of non 25 upgrades allows a lot of "list playing" (eg trying to figure out which combos give best results). Aiming for one or no 25 upgrades resolves into situation where most bits are interchangeable so figuring out combos becomes of units and not points. It's a lot cleaner list that way. Marines don't need to be as variable as Orks or Nids.[/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't get your reasoning here.  Firstly, if an option is costed incorrectly, you adjust the cost for it until it is cheap enough people take it, not so cheap people always take it, and a reasonable price for what it can do.  If that's not a multiple of 25, that won't exactly destroy the world.  

People will always try and take the best units in the list.  Sometimes they will base this on cost, sometimes they will base this on synergy of units.  Usually both (I would assume).  Rounding everything to multiples of 25 makes it easier to spot the best deals in the list, not harder, and makes some choices clearly better than others.  Vindicators at 50 points are cheap - so they're 75 in the current C:A list.  And no one takes them.  

In regards to Marine variability - Marines have a limited number of troops, and face more opponents than most armies ever will.  It makes sense for them to be more flexible and variable, not less.  Of course, I may be misinterpreting what you mean by variable.  



Find me a competitive tourney list that used more Tacticals than Devs.  I'll wait.  

Looking at the Epic GT results, found here, of the five Codex Marine lists that were brought, there was one list that used more than a single formation of Tacticals, and that list was the lowest ranked of the lot.  Considering that over 40% of a Chapter's combat strength is tactical marines, that doesn't seem quite right.  Every list but one used a Devastator formation.  One used two.  

If we look at the previous tournament, Open War, we see the top list using two Dev formations, no Tacticals.  Russell Burton uses more Tacs than Devs - and he finishes 13th out of 18.  

People lean toward Devs over Tacs, and it seems to pay off.  

275 might be a better price for them.  We'll have to see.  I do know that 300 is more than I would consider paying for them at the moment.  



I am.  But even as of right now it's an acceptable size.  I'm just lousy at formatting.    

I'll likely cut the Mechanized option, merge Assault and Demi-Company, and merge Predators and Vindicators.  

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GlynG:


You put that much better than I did.  



I keep assuming everyone just uses the NetEA Compendium.  Has it been taken down?  (I'd also need to include the stats for the Storms).  



Well, I was going to model mine with the Lascannons on top...or with the sponsons extended out to the side so they can shoot past the other sponsons.  The other explanation is that the vehicle doesn't actually fire all its Lascannons at once, but instead tacks and brings one broadside after the other to bear.  

And I'd agree it's not radically different.  However, it's the more-or-less official Space Marine anti-Titan vehicle, it's tougher than the Annihilator, and it fits in well with Terminator units and Land Raider formations.  It also, IMO, makes more sense than running up to the Titan and trying to hit it, or putting a big, short-ranged gun in a tiny vehicle, or than relying on a light tank to do the job.

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The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread