Just to add, after reading through this thread. Whilst I agree with Chris in the comment above, I find it quite tragic that this is the case....

Admittedly this is off topic, but isn't the issue larger than marine ground pounders not being effective? Is it just that other units are too good for their points to the point that in order to be successful at a tournament you need to sacrifice fluff to the god of WAAC and fit as many activations and warhound titans in as possible?

Surely this can't be the case in epic? Where we never see netlisting, yet I find myself looking at cookie-cutter Guard and Marine armies in a fit of despair and face-palming.....

A tournament marine list does seem to write itself.

Just from the top of my head:

Thunderhawk,
Thunderhawk,
Warhound,
Warhound,
Thunderbolt,
Thunderbolt,
Terminators,
Landspeeders.

That seems to be the general template before any thought even needs to be put in, as to what to pick.

I must add, that i do really rather like the Scion's list and think it's a very good base from which to base a ground pounding marine army.  Also i fail to see what's not mechanised about Scions?  APCs backed up by tanks is the very definition of a mechanised list.

Thanks man! I'm sure it will come in handy.

_________________
"Don't use finesse, if force will solve the problem."

- Lieutenant General Michael O'Neal

Yeah... that sound like a "good" start for a competitive SM list... sadly enough.

There's nothing wrong with the Scions list, I like it a lot, but it lacks stuff like strong Assault Marine formations, as well as Devastators outside of AFVs etc.

_________________
"Don't use finesse, if force will solve the problem."

- Lieutenant General Michael O'Neal

Yup, it's nearly there, but the Devestators and Assault Marines were stripped out in order to emphasise the role of the tanks.

Quiet simply, that makes it non-codex, because the 'codex' states you should take a battle company as the heart of a Marine army, to whit:

60 Tactical
20 Devestator
20 Assault


No Assaults and no Devestators, then no Codex...

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

They're driving the tanks and the Speeders... nowhere does it say they have to always go around with jump packs and heavy weapons on foot; that's just their most common (on paper) way of being deployed.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

No where is it stated that Devastators drive ANY vehicles.
IMHO all vehicles are driven by Techmarines and/or Tech Adepts from the Armoury.
Only Bikes, Attack Bikes and Land Speeders are driven by Assault Marines.

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Furthermore, if the list doesn't make provision for the most common deployment method of the units in question, it would seem to be doing a poor job of, well, representing that deployment.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

These are my provisional ideas, posted here for people's gut reactions to them.  

The Apocrypha of Skaros
Tactical - 250
Options: Commander, Dreadnought, Razorback, Hunter, Vindicator, Predator, Assault, Demi-Company
Assault - 150
Options: Commander, Vindicator, Predator, Mechanized
Devastator - 250
Options: Commander, Dreadnought, Razorback, Hunter, Land Raider, Land Raider Terminus, Thudd Guns
Bike - 175
Options: Commander, Attack Bike, Predator
Scout - 125
Options: Commander, Razorback, Sniper, Land Speeder Storm
Terminator - 300
Options:Commander, Dreadnought, Vindicator, Land Raider, Land Raider Terminus
[b]Land Speeder - 175
Options:Commander, Tornado/Typhoon
Land Speeder Tempest - 250 - Formation of four Land Speeder Tempests.
Options: None.  
Predator - 275
Options: Commander, Vindicator, Hunter
Vindicator - 275
Options: Commander, Hunter, Predator
Whirlwind - 300
Options: Commander, Hunter
Land Raider - 350
Options: Commander, Vindicator, Hunter, Land Raider Terminus
Dreadnought - 150 - Formation of four Dreadnoughts
Options: Vindicator, Dreadnought, Hunter, Predator

Options: - All standard options left out for easier consumption.  
Command Vehicle - Any formation with a Captain may add a Land Raider Prometheus for 80.  Any formation with a Supreme Commander may add a Damocles Command Rhino for 75 and/or a Land Raider Prometheus for 80 pts.  
Assault: Add two assault bases for 75.  May not be combined with the Demi-Company upgrade.  
Demi-Company: Add two assault bases and two devastator bases with transport for 175.  May not be combined with the Assault upgrade.  
Land Raider: Add one Land Raider for 90 points.  
Land Raider Terminus - Add a Land Raider Terminus to the formation for 100 points.  
Mechanized - Assault marines lose the jump infantry trait, replacing it with normal infantry movement and enough Rhinos to transport them.  
Predator - add one or two Predators, in any combination of Annihilators and Destructors.  Annihilators cost 75 points each, while Destructors cost 65.  
Thudd Guns - Any number of Devastator bases may be replaced with Thudd Gun bases at +10 points each.  A Thudd Gun base has the same statistics as a Devastator Base, but replaces the Devastators missile shots with the Thudd Gun profile from the Baran Siegemasters list.  The Devastators retain their Small Arms.  

Imperial Support
Thunderhawk Gunship - Troop Insertion - 300
Thunderhawk Gunship - Close Air Support - 250
Thunderhawk Gunship - Saturation Bombing - 250
Plus the standard options relating to Titans and Navy.  No Strike Cruiser, however - it's best not to add a layer of complication this list doesn't need.  After all, if Thunderhawks are untenable, it doesn't make much sense that dropping in ballistically from orbit would be safer.  

Notes:
-I'm not entirely comfortable with the tactical squad price.  However, I don't Devastators shouldn't get any cheaper, and I don't think they're yet at the point where they're undercosted.  If Tacticals are more expensive, Devs are better.  Therefore...
-The Mechanized option for the Assault Squads is mostly there for fluff purposes.  I'm sorely tempted to just remove it, and likely will.  
-The Scouts have access to the Land Speeder Storm because, well, it's exactly the sort of thing that gets used in situations where Thunderhawks and Drop Pods aren't appropriate.  
-Terminators are down to 300 points because they can now either walk or ride in Land Raiders - that's pretty much it.  
-Land Speeders feel a little cheap at 175.  Is my gut correct here?  
-Land Speeder Tempests provide the list with some of the anti-air it will be lacking with the reduction in Thunderhawks, and, much like the Storm, are the sort of thing used in such situations.  
-Vindicators feel a little too expensive, but they've already received one reduction from NetEA - do they need a second?  
-Dreadnoughts need their own formation at this point, since otherwise they just slow everyone else down.  Even so, I doubt they're going to be the most popular option.  
-The Command Vehicle upgrade should likely just become a brief note in the Commander entry.  I'm also a little unsure about the Damocles stats I mention here.  It should provide the Prometheus ability plus a little more, but be appropriately fragile.  
-The Assault option is exactly the same as in the BA list (with the obvious exception that you can't use it in Assault detachments).  
-The Demi-Company option felt like a natural extension of the Assault option.  It's a little unwieldly, and I don't know if anyone would ever actually use it, but hey.  Also, the discount on Devastators purchased with it is intentional - a formation that big is costing you a bunch of activations.  
-The Land Raider Terminus helps reduce the list's dependence on support options to kill big things and gives the list it's own Land Raider without stealing anyone else's thunder.  
-Thudd Guns were available to Marines in the past (I own the models ) and help deal with the list's lack of range.  I figured they're small enough to be easily moved by a Rhino and some power armored superhumans.  May be too cheap, but 25 points per felt too much.  
-The massive points increase on the drop version of the gunship is partly punitive, but also partly because, well, it probably should cost more than it does.  After all, the pure firepower variants cost only slightly more - and carrying troops is arguably more useful...
-I'm tempted to cut support options back to 25% of points values.  Marines fight fairly independently in any case, and it will help reduce the prevalence of support options in the lists slightly.  

That seems to be about it.  Feel free to tell me how wrong I am.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Oh, if anyone wants to play games with the above, I can't say I'd recommend it.  It's completely theoretical at the moment.  

But, y'know.  If you want to, don't let me stop you.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Just a couple of thoughts.

Bikes and Speeders don't really need a cost decrease, unless you're reducing formation size. They were fine, IMO.

Scouts definately need to be either a larger formation, or have a quantitative restriction (max 1/Tactical?) else they are going to be even more popcorny than they are at the moment.

Terminators, unless you removed Teleport, should remain the same price they were.

Vindicators could probably drop another 50pts, and still not be used.    200 and they might see some use. Nahhh.

Keep oddball points costs out. If a straight 25/50/75pt can't be done without imbalance, do it as pairs. Example, Thudd Guns (upgrade 2 Devs to Thudds for 25pts).

Predators could probably do with a points drop, with some kind of additional. I dunno, 225 for 4 Pred Destructors, (upgrade 2/4 Preds to Annihilators for +25/50pts). Costs the same for Las, but allows people to field HB's without getting mildly screwed over.

I'd have no problem with a restriction in Support percentage, but it still doesn't solve the problem. And if you're adding the THawks in there, it might be a little much.

Otherwise, it's more or less what I want to see.

Morgan Vening

I think you're likely right.  



I'd noticed their nice, activation-padding, tendencies.  I don't think a larger formation is particularly appropriate, so I'll ponder restrictions of some kind.  



Teleport was removed.  



200 is ridiculously cheap.  And yet I still find myself thinking of other uses for the points.    



Fair enough.  



Good idea.  Consider it stolen.    



25% of points may be spent on support, transport T-Hawks are more expensive.  That means in a typical tourney list, you could at best take two T-Hawks and you'd be forgoing Titans and other air support to do so.  I can't see folks lining up for that deal.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Scouts, yeah, larger formations would probably be a bad thing. I just wanted to suggest several alternatives, to stop TRC salivating.

Terminators, good they don't have teleport for the cost. Not sure the strategic loss is good though. With the larger restrictions on air assault being removed, the inability to deep strike at all into a heavy AA army might be a little much. Maybe include Teleporting Terminators in Support in the same way you include THawks?

Vindicators, 200pts is only ridiculously cheap if people actually use them. I'm still not convinced that'll happen, but 225 if you're a little skittish.

Support Percentage, I see your point. Personally, I'd rather see the percentage remain the same, but see increases in the cost of the other Allies. Titans getting a 5-10% price increase (Warhounds 300, 550, Reaver 675, Warlord 900), and the Aircraft maybe getting an initiative (1+) and points increase (TBolts 175-200pts, Marauders 250-275). Costs to reflect the increase in effectiveness due to Strategy Rating, with regards the IG list, now that they've finally done away with the Commisar Titans, yay!

Morgan Vening

2 Thunderbolt formations? And land speeders? But otherwise yes, you have all the staples there.



I summon L4 to define a mechanise formation!

In case he doesn't, mech with tanks is combined arms, infantry with APCs and IFVs is pure mechanised. Most of course fight close by their tanks, though some nations do without and just use the mechs pseudo tanks.

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I'm not at the right pc to show you the IF list I occasionally tinker with (but haven't fought with now for over a year sadly).
Latest update as a result of this chat has a fairly standard set of formations with the addition of the tarantula 4 strong formation, the AA 3/1 formation, stuff in there about rapier and thudd guns (I have the models from 1st ed crewed by marines!), mechanised terminators and a few upgrade changes namely the hyperious instead of the hunter for 50 points, 2 assault marines in a rhino, damocles rhino as an alternative commander (25 points, just gives leader) and LR prometheus for fun combined assaults. Probably a few other things in there as well like mixed LS/bike formations and so on. Oh and a trenches and bunker formation. I think also rhinos are a paid for upgrade, not included in the formations base cost making garrisons cheaper.
And and just because the Titan options are a bit different, Reaver with power fist, TLD and MRL, cheaper, Warlord with 2 MRL, power fist and plasma cannon, cheaper, Warhound with VMB and Inferno no change, ideas being its of course a siege breaking force so stand off weapons not so required.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x