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First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
frogbear
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:43 am 
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Hi All

Not sure if you are all aware but GW have decided to close down the biggest fan-run site for bloodbowl. With everything that goes on here, I hope this site is not next on their list.

Here is the information from the talkbloodbowl site:

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Good evening everybody,

Today I received a letter from the Games Workshop Group PLC stating that if I didn't compy with 4 directives within 14 days they would take formal proceedings against me. It saddens me to see GW take such action against a perfectly legitamate fan site that has provided a global communications portal for BB fans, with no intention of conning them out of the millions they make in sales. I feel that I have been stereotypically branded as an Internet con-man. I have been a GW fan for 20+ years and this site has been active for almost 9 of that 20. This site has also had GW staff registered and actively contribute to its content (it may still have).

The assumptions from GWG PLC are that I am making a profit from the donations received by this site. They also point out that consumers may believe TalkBB is connected with GW and the fact the domain name includes Bloodbowl which is an infringement of GW's registered trademark. Now, I am not against their need to ensure their trademarks are not used inappropriately, I feel they could have approached me in a more friendly manner to investigte the purpose of the site and discover that I only wanted to provide a hub for dicussing Blood Bowl globally. instead, they immediately enter heavy handed.

If they truely believe the donations have contributed to me becoming a wealthy person or that I have made enough money to give up a proper job they are sadly mistaken. The small amount of money donated has gone to pay for the upkeep of the server (when I used my own hardware and hosted it at home) or towards the costs for hosting with an ISP. In short I have been vastly out of pocket to provide TalkBB rather than the other way around. I thank all those that have contributed as it has helped TalkBB survive.

I have been asked to:

Immediately cease and desist from any activity which infringes GW's intellectual property.
either remove remove your website or the reference to 'Blood Bowl' in your website name.
Remove the donations button from the page.
Confirm by return that you will not infringe GW's intellectual properly rights at any time in the future.

Now, I could simply remove Bloodbowl from the domain by renaming it to TalkBB.com, but that means buying a new domain and time spent sorting everything out. Bearing in mind I hardly visit TalkBloodBowl.com anyway, I can't really be bothered with all that so have decided to let it die. Therefore from Sunday 8 November 2009 www.talkbloodbowl.com will cease to exist.

Should anybody wish to take ownership of the source and contents I will be more than happy to prepare it for transfer, although this will not include the domain name. I will also have to ensure the recipient will not use DB content for anything other than to maintain the forum as part of an existing Blood Bowl site. This is to ensure passwords and emails do not fall into the wrong hands.

Thank you for your support over the years and for making TalkBloodBowl.com what it is today. Without you all it would have died all by itself many years ago, regardless of donations.

Regards,
JohnnyP


It is a sad day indeed

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Mephiston
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:58 am 
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Well the GW lawyers couldn't go directly after CS for the same stuff. The website doesn't use any GW words in its name and there is no donate button.

As to some of the trading that goes on here, that may be a bit closer to the bone.
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:17 am 
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Hmm, then the rumour about Port Maw may also be true.

edit
According Darkson at the SG forum more site received this.  :boo:




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GlynG
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Very worrying development! :oh:

One of the problems talked about in that quoted message is that the website included the copyrighted phrase 'Blood Bowl', here doesn't at least, not does the donation issue and they may be more defensive of the Blood Bowl copyright  than the Epic one since they recently released a Blood Bowl computer game.

Closing down such fan sites that support and enthuse communities buying their products seems like them shooting themselves in their foot, what exactly do they stand to gain from it?
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Mephiston
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:32 pm 
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The veteran gamer is not GW's target audience. While we may spend money there they really want to target the 12 - 18 year old that are starting out. They will spend far more of their disposable income in the stores and don't whine about how much better it used to be  :whistle:
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Fortis
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:34 pm 
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I always wonder what will happy when someone gets sick of the bully boy treatment GW hands out and asserts their fair use of the IP. No one seems to have been interested in it so far, but I'm sure it'll happen eventually. As Mephiston said there's very little IP infringement at the forum and site in general, and hopefully the site has a disclaimer that individual posters are responsible for their own posts.
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Well, the main host url for TacCom is still www.ep**4*k.co.uk  .

Closing fansites is so contraproductive.

Alas, GW stricltly forbids the use of trademarks in website names.




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Bad news indeed. I understand the need to defend IP, but I agree that this comes off as heavy-handed. Is GW hoping that the refugees will now migrate to the SG forum?

EDIT: I really hope this doesn't happen to us.




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GlynG
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Quote: (blackhorizon @ Nov. 04 2009, 11:45 )

Well, the main host url for TacCom is still www.ep**4*k.co.uk  .

Closing fansites is so contraproductive.

Alas, GW stricltly forbids the use of trademarks in website names.

That should probably be changed ASAP to be safe, if such is technically feasible. I strongly agree with your second point.

Is Cybershadow aware of this yet?

I really, really hope the same does not happen here.
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Mephiston
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:04 pm 
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Maybe they hope that if the close down all the forums no one will be able to complain about:-

A) Poor (I'd use a different word but it would be censored!) Rules
B) Constant codex creep
C) Cost of metal models
D) Cost of plastic models
E) Annoying sales practices for the experienced gamer....

and even more people will buy White Dwarf to know what's going on in their hobby (cos it is theirs you know)

I'll be waiting for the games police to knock at my door  :shutup:
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nealhunt
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Alright...

Again, I will preface by saying I don't know all the differences between US and UK law, but in the US they are overreaching.

1) The purpose of trademark law is consumer protection, which is notably different than patent or copyright law, which control use (either affirmatively, as in the UK or proscriptively, as in the US).  Trademarks are infringed when their use becomes confusing for the consumer such that the consumer might believe they are purchasing the original brand.  That means both the trademark itself AND the product have to be materially similar or so closely associated that it could be construed as a related product line from the trademark holder.  As long as it is clearly identified as a trademark and any connection with the company is disclaimed, it isn't infringed.

2) As long as the trademark is not infringed it is in no way illegal to make money off of another party's trademark.  Again, the point is to protect the consumer, not the trademark holder.

GW might arguably have a case for trademark dilution as a damage to their brand.  However, I think not.  They would have to argue that there is blurring (the trademark loses its singular association in the marketplace, e.g. a car parts company uses a name similar to a hair care company's trademark) or tarnishment (association with negative connotations due to the use of the trademark).  This use of "Blood Bowl" clearly refers to and promotes their product, so there is absolutely no blurring and I'd guess tarnishment is equally remote as a possibility.


Harassment cease and desist letters are not only an ******* thing to do, some jurisdictions have laws that specifically penalize wrongful assertions of IP.  TalkBloodBowl could file in their local court for such protection, citing the above issues.  At a minimum, he could seek a ruling that he is within fair use of the trademark and if there are local laws he could get the court to assess a penalty.  GW is then forced to procure local legal counsel to defend their claim (likely a minimum of a $1000 and probably more for a good attorney).

Personally, I'd spend the $20 or whatever it is to file for a declaratory judgment and wait for the reaction when GW receives a summons from the court stating they have to appear to defend their cease and desist letter.  I have lawyer friends that would help me out, but even if I didn't, I'd probably do it pro se just to be a dick.




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CyberShadow
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:13 pm 
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I am going to keep this relatively short. As of today, I have not had any correspndance from GW. If I do get any, I will let you all know.

I suspect that there are two main reasons for this:

- Donate button
- GW IP in the URL

I suspect that the donate button is the biggest reason for this, as - in GWs eyes - this represents a person making money (not necessarily a profit, just money) from GW IP.

The GW IP name in the URL is something that GW have been uneasy about for a while.

This site does not, and has never taken, any cash. The only way money comes in to me is through the eBay click referral. This site also does not use any GW IP in its URL. In fact, that is one of the driving forces behind buying this domain rather than continuing with www.epic40k.co.uk. If GW have a problem with www.epic40k.co.uk then I will be happy to close it down, save myself the web costs, and transfer the material over (which is something that I want to do in time anyway).

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Chaplain Leviticus
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Maybe GW would be happier if all GW supportive sites closed down and we all stopped playing their games.  I am contributing to the later anyway.

I've seen some pretty stupid things go on with copyright cases, but it would be worth cost (about $150 filing fee and $50 for the sheriff to serve summons/complaint)to see if GW shows up.  As stated earlier; they no show and it is a summary judgment against them and cease and desist is quashed, leaving GW to come back and file an appeal if they want to enforce it.

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Angel_of_Caliban
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:42 pm 
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I do hope someone would stand and confront GW. Isn't there a gamer that has LOADS of disposable income that just wants to see their reaction. There has to me some millionaire type person playing a GW game, right?

They are shooting themselves in the foot but that doesn't stop from doing it everyday anyways.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: First Bloodbowl. Is this site next?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:05 pm 
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They all play historicals sadly!

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