Just looking over the stats for an Exocrine, I noticed that a Bio cannon is only as effective as an autocannon (with 2 shots, admittedly). I pulled out IA4 and checked the stats for it. According to Forgeworld, a single bio cannon is S10 AP3 Large Blast, 48" range. That makes it a demolisher cannon with double the range and minus 1 ap. How is it that it's stats in Epic are so poor? The Bio cannon is supposed to be the ultimate big gun for the 'nids, not this dinky double autocannon. Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for this?  

Biocannon stats in Apocalypse are 48" Str10 AP3 Assault 8

With those stats it is hard to find a non-tyranid comparison

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Either way, that is many times better than a double auto cannon. Way better. Has a good chance to kill Monoliths and space marines alike. Autocannons? Incapable of even glancing a Monolith, and has a tough time with Predators. brutal against infantry in anything less than power armor. But going by the Apoc stats, the BC has:
+3S
+1AP
+4A
Assault as opposed to heavy
No way its the same as a pair of ACs. (Twin Auto Cannons?)

Either Black Legion, Chroma or Evil & Chaos would be the best to respond to this I would think....

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I would support increasing the power of Bio-Cannons, so that they properly represent the terrifying, hugely powerful weapons that they are in the background / warhammer 40,000.

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I'm playing Epic, not 40k or Apocalypse...

Forgeworld and Apocalypse especially go for the ridiculously powerful for most stuff they include- sure helps sell the model...

Actually, a lot of Forgeworld stuff has historically been underpowered, for its points cost, so as to stop people whining that if you put down a Forgeworld model on the table, you auto-win.

Witness the difference in stats between the original forgeworld stats for the Baneblade, and the ones GW later made in order to sell the plastic Baneblade kits, for example.

Or the very high points-per-model price of Death Korps Guardsmen, or the high price of the Valdor tank hunter, for recent examples.

Forgeworld models are typically underpowered, compared to the rest of Warhammer 40,000. Saying that they're generally silly-overpowered indicates that you don't have any familiarity with Forgeworld's unit stats and points costs.


Fact is, Bio-Cannons are very powerful weapons, as/more powerful than Battlecannons (depending on target type), and that's consistent between the background, and the Warhammer 40,000 rules.

In making Bio-Cannons less powerful, you are making up your own weapon, rather than reflecting what a "Bio-Cannon" actually is.

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I have no problem with Bio-cannons being downgraded in order to achieve a design purpose. If Tyranid shooting becomes too good, Tyranids will start playing shooty instead of relying on assaults. Bio-cannons still DO serve the purpose of adding Blast Markers.

For me the cannon stats do not necessarily reflect the biological/technological profile of its 40K equivalent, but rather the bio-cannon's strategic abilities. One could easily claim that the downgrade of the bio-cannon reflects the lack of co-ordinated fire and better fits the instinctively triggered Tyranid way of war.

I know there are basically two camps on this issue: one for 40K translations of weapon stats, and one against. Although I see merits in translating newer weaponry to attract new players, I do not think Epic should look to far into the more whimsical development trends of 40K.

Maybe a more shooty Splinter Fleet army list variant should be designed, where Bio-cannons are put to better use?

/Fredmans

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Tyranid weapons are somewhat difficult to directly translate from 40k as their stats change based on the creature carrying them.

Bio-cannons, which via direct translation could even be considered Barrage weapons, have been purposely downgraded to prevent the Bugs from being "too shooty", similar to how the Tau's firefight values have been artificially reduced.  This doesn't sit well with everyone, myself included, but it is in place to make the Tyranids more assault oriented over shooting oriented.

The French EPIC community have "variable" Biocannons that have a number of shots based on, I believe, the DC of the creature carrying it.

I'm more than willing to entertain discussion about the weapon, or anything Tyranid!, but my attendance on the boards will be spotty the next two weeks as I'm off to Australia.

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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yes, because our internet in Australia is judged by how far you can throw a boomerang? Is that what you mean Chroma?    

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No, I meant that travelling with my wife means I won't have as many opportunities to just sit at a computer typing about little toy soldiers... *laugh*

Looking forward to meeting you Upside-Downers!  

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This of course leads to the obvious question.

Which of the Bio-Cannon armed models suffer from the weak Bio-Cannon stats?

The Exocrine is a bit rubbish but this has already popped up and the general feel was moving it to 3 for 175pts would make it reasonable as a fire support unit

The Hierophant feels about right. It's weaker than the other scout titans at range but the higher DC, TK Claws and decent CC value mean none of the other scout titans want to be anywhere near one.

The Dominatrix is good enough already.

The Barbed Hierodule is probably the only one that would benefit but not at a points increase.

Bio-Cannons probably should be better but is it worth the trade off of increased points.

But their true purpose is destroying tanks and large concentrations of infantry. They're Biological horrors that lob acid into your face. Besides, one uncommon brood isn't going to make an entire army, especially with 45cm range.



I really disagree. Tyranids are only instinctive when outside of synapse. An since Exocrines are always with synapse (they are brood creatures, something else that I disagree with), they are 'plugged in' to the Tyranid battle plans. When under synapse, they are hardly uncoordinated, they are all slaved to one brain, acting with the coordination of our own fingers. Besides, their stats are inconsistent with those of the similarly sized Hierodule.



I agree with you on this issue mostly, but the Forge world/apocalypse stats are the only thing that we have to go by. Also, the fluff on Exocrines states that tank companies came to fear them. Everything that I know about Bio cannons points to them being extremely powerful, and you must agree that they are worth more than a double autocannon.

Also, for E&C, the Biocannon is better than a battle cannon. S10 vs. S8, and the biocannon is also capable of moving, shooting and assaulting in 40K, where a battle cannon can only move and shoot.

Anyways, I just want it to better represent what it is.