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World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:38 am 
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From extensive playtesting with BL&EC terminators the lack of numbers isn't the problem that you make out - just add daemons. Suddenly you then have a 7-8 unit formation sat on your opponents baseline - half of which don't take BMs and the rest are RA,TRA and in the WE case fearless

Ah-ha! This has so far been the best argument put forth for a price rise. Have the other chaos terminator formations had their prices raised as of yet?

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:45 am 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 Jul. 2009, 06:06 )

From extensive playtesting with BL&EC terminators the lack of numbers isn't the problem that you make out - just add daemons. Suddenly you then have a 7-8 unit formation sat on your opponents baseline - half of which don't take BMs and the rest are RA,TRA and in the WE case fearless.

I take your points. Now explain how they do in a game and whether they get back what you paid for them.

Also advise why they should be so penalised when the Black Legion or any of the other 3 cult marines are not. Afterall, all of those units can take daemons as well. Also all the other cult marines have fearless units and larger numbers!

Now in taking the daemons, you are also spending more points. How does having even less activations assist you in this respect? So the example was 4 bloodletters. With a daemonic pact that is 105 more points. Now add the daemon prince and an Icon bearer, that is Daemon Prince (+ warlord SC) +100  and Icon Bearer + 50 for a total of 630 points. Now if you realistically take this I would love to see this battle report and measure up whether the expenditure of points was worth this little monster. Afterall, getting rid of that Icon bearer alone get's rid of the daemons - not hard to do with sniper or aircraft sniping.

Do I not have anyone that sees things the same way?




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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:23 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:02 )

Which part of 100 points a unit of Nurgle Terminators I support doesn't fulfill that? Which part that I'd like to see points upgrade to Tzeench doesn't fulfill that. I must admit that I haven't looked at the Slaanesh list, so I dunno if there is need as well.

Not any of them, however if the points are being discussed right down to the berserker retinues, don't you think that the Black Legion list should be fixed and the the cult lists can the be priced up or down accordingly?

What we lack is a plan that states this is worth ~that and this skill is worth ~this. If we had the guidline rather than just talk, we would be having a more productive discussion. Afterall, these skills and stats must have some type of respective value.

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:30 am 
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SM terminators are a far better comparison though, BL lack ATSKNF and fearless and have to be extensively upgraded to be effective.

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:38 am 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:30 )

SM terminators are a far better comparison though, BL lack ATSKNF and fearless and have to be extensively upgraded to be effective.

Steve

You still have not commented on the other cult lists. Is it just World Eaters that you have an issue with?

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:43 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:29 )

I don't have problems with Black Legion. They aren't fearless.

So let's get to the crux of this. How much is fearless worth?

Would you say that 15 points per stand is an appropriate cost to pay for Fearless?

If not, what value per stand would you say is appropriate?

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:51 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:38 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:30 )

SM terminators are a far better comparison though, BL lack ATSKNF and fearless and have to be extensively upgraded to be effective.

Steve

You still have not commented on the other cult lists. Is it just World Eaters that you have an issue with?

Death Guard - already more expensive

Thousand sons - I'd echo hena that they should be more expensive

Emperors Children - 500 for 6, though slightly cheaper per stand than the WE this is more than offset by the larger formation which reduces other options in the list, the EC terminators themselves aren't as good and using them is a huge gamble with the variable strategy rating of the EC.

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:02 am 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 Jul. 2009, 07:51 )

Death Guard - already more expensive

Fair enough, however there are 3 points being ignored here regarding the Death Guard:

1. They recieve a +1 EA MW for CC and a +1 EA MW for FF
2. They can be taken in larger numbers
3. They can be taken as two seperate units in the army.

Now the World Eater Bloodlord is currently under review on attacks and does not enjoy the flexibility of the Death Guard Lord.

Despite what people say regarding the numbers, more is better and the fact that you can take 2 units in an army is a benefit that should be paid for. They are also more versatile and mean that they can perform clipping assaults or face off in a FF combat to the same effectiveness either way. World Eaters who get clipped will most likley lose and end up broken.

World Eater Terminators cannot do the same. In effect, I would value the Death Guard more as a unit. You should pay the cost for being so versatile. Unfortunately, the World Eaters do not enjoy this luxury.

Also what is being ignored is the Blood Lust rule. It is a fact that you can lose a game due to this rule. In turn 3, instead of grabbing the objective, they may run towards the enemy (no matter how far away they are). This is a game breaker and should not be left out of the points decision. There is no way known that with all the above that World Eaters are in the same class as the Death Guard Termies, and therefore should not be in the same price range.

No other army that I know of can lose a game due to a forced move. So why should this force not be that little bit cheaper to represent such a flaw?




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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:33 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 22 Jul. 2009, 08:24 )

1. There is no extra FF attacks on Terminators. There can be one if you take sorcerer lord.

Sorry.

My mistake. It does not say OR so I missread it. It really should say OR as reading the bottom text is an easy oversight.

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:36 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 22 Jul. 2009, 08:24 )

No other army that I know of can lose a game due to a forced move. So why should this force not be that little bit cheaper to represent such a flaw?

Because it enables them to automatically engage their target. That is huge!

Huge if you are within 15cm!

If you are 16cm-30cm, then you are in a FF (Khorne help them!) and they have a BM to boot!

What if they are out of the 15cm with no way to regroup back towards the objective? Game Loss!

Using the word huge is a grand overstatement IMO. Losing a game to the rule is huge.

That glass 'aint getting any fuller as I watch it.




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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:25 am 
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Just go to the site, download the stuff. Have to use proxies, but space marines should do it readily enough.

You need to download the vassel engine
http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php
Then get the epic module here
http://www.mediafire.com/?jy41nkdijty

I'm only any good with doing silly human style armies, not sure if I would be able to get my head round frothing CC monsters!

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 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:39 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 22 Jul. 2009, 06:11 )

Hena, please don't insult my intelligence trying to argue your point. You cannot possibly know how Joe Bloggs in a country far far away will build his army. It's pure conjecture. If someone doesn't want terminators they wont buy them. Besides, every army has formations that are almost universally taken. One formation of terminators isn't going to break an army list.

So that raises the question - why not allow 2? Would people then take 2 of them? Why not three? Basically do you think it is something a tourney player would 'max out' on?

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