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World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
BlackLegion
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Don`t forget that all Chaos Terminators don't have ATSKNF.

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:31 am 
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Let me relate the exeprience of my last game.

Now take note that the Black Legion Terminators are about 30 points cheaper each so about 120 points cheaper overall. That makes this 'bitter pill' a little easier to swallow:

I teleported my 4 terminators which included my Daemon Prince. I was grateful not to roll any 1's for this and therfore did not gain a BM.

I charged and wiped out a unit. In doing so, I lost 2 models (this is not an unlikley situation). In this regard I gained 2 BM and became broken.

For the rest of the game, I spent my time either being broken, running, or attempting to rally. This was not the best use of such a unit. It was only the fact that my opponent charged me and messed up strategically that these terminators were able to wipe out another unit (while being broken).

So increasing the cost of such a unit that is a 1-Hit formation IMO is not necessary. Greater numbers in units (which all other cult lists have) gets past this problem. Yes, the Khorne terminators may be good, but they are so limited in respect of numbers, that you really have to consider the role they will play, and realise that you will most likley only have one shot with them.

You also then have to be careful that they are not your BTS for the above reason.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:40 am 
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I just read the Morgans post above and realised that Terminators are too cheap in this list. They are like regular except: CC2+ and FF4+, Reapers instead of Assault Cannon, Berserk and Fearless. All this for 25 points ... I think these should be upgraded to more like 450 points. Why? Usual tactic of Terminators is: Teleport to place and Engage target to CC.

I cost them at approx 81.25 each atm.
No ATSKNF(I see this as approx. 25 points alone), 1 reaper shot only per unit(not 2x assault cannon), +1 CC -1 FF(harder to effect damage from a clip. need to base up to do their damage). They also get no inspiring add on.

And don't worry Frog, I won't be increasing their cost.
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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:21 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 21 Jul. 2009, 02:40 )

And don't worry Frog, I won't be increasing their cost.

:;):

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:35 am 
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The Bloodlord IMO would indeed be costed at ~75. If you went with +2 normal attacks (dropping all Macro), the reduction to ~50 would be right. Unless the opponent is RA4+, or Armour3+, there's no real drop in power level from +1MWEA to +2EA.

Well, given I don't want to increase their cost I will try the lord at 50 (inclusive)points with no MW but +3EA (currently at MW,+2EA). This gives 4 CC attacks but no MW auto kills.

Does this seem fair to you/how you would see it Morgan?

My preference for the list is to keep costs down as much as possible at the moment (but fairly costing also btw) unless entirely necessary due to activation number reasons.

The costs right now are only temporary. I would like to see playtests with the upcoming 1.1 final document before I adjust again.

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:22 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 21 Jul. 2009, 03:35 )

Does this seem fair to you/how you would see it Morgan?

I will just jump in here and give the black legion setup for comparative purposes

8 chaos Marines and Lord = 275 points (comparable)

Chaos Space Marine Lord: Base Contact Assault +1A MW
                     OR 15cm  Small Arms     +1A MW

Retriction: The Chaos Lord upgrade can only be applied to one of the Core units of a Black Legion Formation

Bonus: One Chaos Space Marine Lord character in the army must be selected to be the Chaos Warlord. (Free Supreme Commander)

So in effect, the World Eaters get unlimited Bloodlords (one per retinue), they get berserk and fearless and the extra MW attack. They can gain Supreme Commander for 50 points extra.

Just adding this for purposes of perspective and not as an opinion at this time.




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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:34 am 
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I will however add that I would see the Bloodlord keeping at least an EA+1 MW.

Whether you add any attacks (MW or normal) after that is where I believe the discussion should run. Have to be conscious of the fact that the marine retinues do not (cannot) shoot for distances, and they can be unreliable when they have a blast marker (small chance yet relevant). Rarely is a game won by wiping the other army out. It is normally won (under the GT rules), via objectives.  

Just want to make sure it is balanced on both sides of the discussion.

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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:26 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 21 Jul. 2009, 03:35 )

The Bloodlord IMO would indeed be costed at ~75. If you went with +2 normal attacks (dropping all Macro), the reduction to ~50 would be right. Unless the opponent is RA4+, or Armour3+, there's no real drop in power level from +1MWEA to +2EA.

Well, given I don't want to increase their cost I will try the lord at 50 (inclusive)points with no MW but +3EA (currently at MW,+2EA). This gives 4 CC attacks but no MW auto kills.

Does this seem fair to you/how you would see it Morgan?

My preference for the list is to keep costs down as much as possible at the moment (but fairly costing also btw) unless entirely necessary due to activation number reasons.

The costs right now are only temporary. I would like to see playtests with the upcoming 1.1 final document before I adjust again.

Just a comparison set.

+1MW vs +3EA, calculating kills from the beginning (chance to hit * chance to fail save * number of attacks = average kills)

Armour Nil = 0.833 vs 2.500 = 300%
Armour 6+  = 0.833 vs 2.083 = 250%
Armour 5+  = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 4+  = 0.833 vs 1.250 = 150%
Armour 3+  = 0.833 vs 0.833 = 100%
Armour 6+RA= 0.694 vs 1.736 = 208%
Armour 5+RA= 0.555 vs 1.111 = 200%
Armour 4+RA= 0.417 vs 0.625 = 150%

So only against armour 3+ is it comparable. In most cases and against the most common opponents (4+ and 4+RA), it's at least 50% better.

Just for comparison,

+1MW vs +2EA (My recommendation if you're not wanting to increase the cost). Better in most instances, but against the core stuff the same, and a weakness against 3+.

Armour Nil = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 6+  = 0.833 vs 1.389 = 167%
Armour 5+  = 0.833 vs 1.111 = 133%
Armour 4+  = 0.833 vs 0.833 = 100%
Armour 3+  = 0.833 vs 0.555 = 66%
Armour 6+RA= 0.694 vs 1.157 = 166%
Armour 5+RA= 0.555 vs 0.741 = 133%
Armour 4+RA= 0.417 vs 0.416 = 100%

And finally, the original setup.

+1MW vs +2MW

Armour Nil = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 6+  = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 5+  = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 4+  = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 3+  = 0.833 vs 1.666 = 200%
Armour 6+RA= 0.694 vs 1.388 = 200%
Armour 5+RA= 0.555 vs 1.111 = 200%
Armour 4+RA= 0.417 vs 0.834 = 200%

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frogbear
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:03 am 
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Nice

Are you able to plug these examples into your little computer to bring up the data

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +2EA

and

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +3EA

and finally (sorry 'bout this)

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +2EA MW

Thanks dude.

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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:22 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 21 Jul. 2009, 11:03 )

Nice

Are you able to plug these examples into your little computer to bring up the data

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +2EA

and

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +3EA

and finally (sorry 'bout this)

+1EA MW & +1EA  vs  +2EA MW

Thanks dude.

The data for +2EA, +3EA, and +2EAMW are already above. So comparison there is easy.

For +1EAMW & +1EA on the same unit,

AArmour Nil = 1.666
Armour 6+  = 1.528
Armour 5+  = 1.389
Armour 4+  = 1.250
Armour 3+  = 1.111
Armour 6+RA= 1.273
Armour 5+RA= 0.926
Armour 4+RA= 0.625

Shouldn't be hard for you to figure out the comparitive data.

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Steve54
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:23 am 
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I really agree with Hena that the terminators should be more expensive

At the moment for 4+character we have
Black Legion 260
SM 400
World Eaters 375

First of all BL are probably slightly underpriced at the moment but are significantly inferior to the others.

The FF drop for WE makes very little difference in that they are a teleporting unit and therefore will be able to BtB with all but skimmers. WEs are better as they have better CC

ATSKNF/fearless - SM are more difficult to break but WE have to be killed to get rid of them - if anything fearless is marginally better as having fearless, RA units on your baseline is viewed as a problem (see obliterator debate). Also the problems of lacking ATSKNF can be mitigated by taking daemons.

Berserk - means that WEs will automatically engage - again a plus.

In fact the only real pluses the SM have is superior initiative rating that makes it more likely they will activate first and inspiring characters.

With auto engage, fearless, daemons, princes, better CC I'd definitely put the WE up in price

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:52 pm 
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The FF drop for WE makes very little difference in that they are a teleporting unit and therefore will be able to BtB with all but skimmers. WEs are better as they have better CC

It still has to be factored into cost.

SM are more difficult to break but WE have to be killed to get rid of them
Not that hard to do though.


Berserk - means that WEs will automatically engage - again a plus
Except when they do fail and then they might not....

In fact the only real pluses the SM have is superior initiative rating that makes it more likely they will activate first and inspiring characters
Italics by me for effect. These are big factors BTW....

I'd definitely put the WE up in price
SM 400
World Eaters 375
So you're quibbling over 25 points for a unit that is actually less effective everywhere else on the board but up close...? I'm thinking my pricing isn't that wrong. The only issue I see with them right now is getting the bloodlord stats correct.

Sorry I'm not going to adjust them yet.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Can someone clarify something for me?

in a notes section does:

MW, +1EA mean 1st hit is MW, extra attack is normal? or is it that both hits will be MW?

I always thought the former. Which is correct?

cheers
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:01 pm 
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It means that only the extra attack is MW.
The base attack is not affected by the MW tag that applies to the +1 EA, and so will be a 'normal' attack.

Not that it's easy to tell you're a Tau player or anything. :))




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