How does this sound?

Any formation in a World Eaters army containing units listed as Berserk, suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if that formation fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, they must perform an Engage action and attempt to assault the closest enemy formation. The berserk formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.


Well you shoul note that Apocalypse makes Baneblade sized War Engines with DC3 out of the Doom Blaster and the Tower of Skulls.

So the old models would be to small and still count as Khorne Daemonic Assault Engines.

I would not give the -1 for an assault action. As a matter of a fact, within 30cm and wanting to assault, I would advise a +1 to the activation. It just seems crap to think that you state that you will assault, and then fail the activation, get a blast marker and then have to assault anyway now at a disadvantage.

Also, the rule should be "bloodlust". Beserk as a skill could be used in other armies (a seperate Khorne list as an example). Bloodlust is uniquely World Eater in this case

I do have an issue with the 30cm rule as well. Berserkers having to FF is just crazy. I would rather it be a 15 cm rule with them knowing that they can get into BtB contact. Just my thoughts... imagine a warhound unit keeping within 30 of the unit, forcing them to charge (most likley) and whipping them in the assault. Do Khorne really think they can do the quarter mile in under 10 seconds?

I know I would use such a tactic to remove the vehicles from the unit at least.

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Again, you refer to "that formation", which in context sounds like the enemy formation that has to engage.

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winner winner chicken dinner!!  

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Ok lads. It's time to decide which version of Blood Rage we want in the list as the document is ready to go.  

original 1.02 version for a sense of where we have been:

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding
Chaos Navy or spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see
1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must perform
an Engage action, rather than the usual Hold action. If
any unit in the formation cannot end that engage move
within 15cms of any enemy formations, then the
formation must make one move at maximum speed
towards the nearest enemy formation. The formation still
receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as
normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the
formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

page 3 of this thread:

Any beserker formation in a World Eaters army that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must perform an Engage action, rather than the usual Hold action. The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

Lord I's addition on pg 5:

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy. Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) suffers -1 to Activation rolls if there is at least one enemy unit within 30cm of any of the units in the formation. In addition, any formation (excluding Chaos Navy or spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must choose one of the following rather than the normal Hold action: the formation may make one 'charge' move and then fight an assault or shoot once or regroup.

my adjustment of Lord Is proposal:

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft)suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if the berserker formation fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, they must perform an Engage action and attempt to assault that enemy. The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

Neal Hunt's additional to the rule:

Blood Rage
[Engage on Hold rules]

Units with Blood Rage which lose an assault may not make Withdrawal moves per 1.12.8 Loser Withdraws.  Any non-Fearless units accompanying the Blood Rage units must withdraw as normal.  Units out of formation after withdrawal moves are resolved as described in 1.7.4.

Zombo's version:

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if a formation (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, it must perform an Engage action against an enemy formation it can succesfully reach. Note that if there are no enemy formations in range to be engaged the formation may use its engagement move as a normal move.

The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

my latest update:

Any formation in a World Eaters army containing units listed as Berserk, suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if the berserk formation fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, they must perform an Engage action and attempt to assault the closest enemy formation. The berserk formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

On this last one I see Frogbear's point and think it is a bit odd.

So which way do we want to go? I'm keen on the rule applying to the unit in it's notes section so that will be the way I will go for this rule. I'm not too concerned with the name of the rule right now just trying to get it sorted.

I guess it comes down to which one is less likely to whiff it enough that you lose an attack.

If 2x4+ is less likely to whiff it despite higher chance of one stand missing with both then 2x4+ feels safer.

Maximum hits you get isn't that important if say half a that is enough to wipe out opponent. And winning the assault is more important than exact casualties anyway. Losing it is bigger disaster than extra casualties on winning assault. I suppose this is why people prefer 2+ vs 2x4+. They want safety in winning the assault rather than whiffing it and ending up with broken berserker formation.

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As almost all of the choices incorporate the -1 which I am totally against, I would have to say my vote goes to:

page 3 of this thread:

Any beserker formation in a World Eaters army that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must perform an Engage action, rather than the usual Hold action. The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves

This means I DO NOT have to engage if I do not want a silly FF combat, and also means that I am not suffering the -1 modifier which I cannot see any reason for it being there outside of 15cm. Anything outside of any of these observations makes the World Eaters useless against skimmers and anything else that can outmaneuver them. They then become unplayable against a general who knows what he is doing.

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Having re-read the proposals thus far all in one spot I have to admit the -1 to activate seems odd given it means it's more difficult to engage enemy within 30cm if you actually want to.... is that what people actually want to happen? I'm not sure having enemy that close would force indecision in the World Eaters as it seems to do - more they'd be eager to assault them....

Personally, I'm definitely leaning toward Lord I's option but minus the -1 and the 30cm stipulation. I also have an inkling to try Neal's additional rule. I'm just not sure how people will take it when they first lose their Land Raiders in an assault.   I guess the choice would be theirs as to which vehicles are destroyed depending on the resolution result. Of course, it's possible it can wait till a later version....

Well for brevity in the list I will be listing the Assault Engines as one entity with one set of stats  
Old school models can still be used, and I don't have to generate extra data sheets  

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If the player wanted to preserve the transports, they could declare the Blood Rage units to be the ones out of coherency and destroyed rather than the transports.

One issue that I just thought of is that I was thinking of this from a unit ability perspective.  That doesn't so much jive with the mods to initiative, which are a formation ability.  It could work, but it would take more explanation.

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So it would read like this?

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy. Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must choose one of the following rather than the normal Hold action: the formation may make one 'charge' move and then fight an assault or shoot once or regroup.

The failure has now become a bonus as the 'charge' move can be taken as a move as well.

Just an observation...

Edit: Maybe just an engage or shoot in place of the hold action is sufficient for the current rule. This allows Dreadnoughts and other Daemonic engines to cause appropriate damage to their role in the army when the bloodlust hits.

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I'm not all that keen on the -1 when within 30 to be honest. I think simplicity is the way to go, just replace hold with engage and make it clear how it works (have to assault a formation in range etc)

The 30cm thing reminds me too much of the current factions rule in the BL list, which is almost universally disliked. I can definately see it being forgotten about too many times ingame.

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I agree, the -1 thing should just be dropped

While I have serious reservations about having an all Fearless list, regarding this element, I would agree that we should avoid having a -1 modifier.

Perhaps an acceptable alternative would be for Beserkers to get +1 to perform an engage move on the nearest enemy, while having to engage or shoot if they fail to activate.

One question that does not seem to have been discussed is whether the penalty applies to all activations or just the failure to engage, though the presumption is that it should apply to all activations.

Also note that I suggest they should not be able to regroup on failure. If the Berserkers want to regroup they have to Marshall or wait to the end of the turn.

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