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The new Blood Rage....

 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:19 am 
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I'm with Frogbear on this. I was actually going to mention the exact same view about dice rolls and averages when we were discussing the 2+ vs 2x3+ etc earlier in the thread. Averages don't equate well to actual gaming in my experience. They're just an on-paper result you hardly see.

I'd prefer we keep the 2+ - at a stretch 2x3+.


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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:29 am 
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Averages don't equate well to actual gaming in my experience. They're just an on-paper result you hardly see.


2x 4+ attacks will on most occasions lay more hits on the enemy than 1x 2+ attack, on average about 20% more hits.
There will be a higher number of missed hits, but over a large number of dice that will tend to even out.

Not that I actually think they need changing or anything, I just don't see the reason you seem to see 2x 4+ as actually worse than 1x 2+ at applying hits, is it just a psychological thing, as in 2's 'feel nicer to have' ?

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:39 am 
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Ignoring the averages is why everyone loses money in vegas.

2x4+ really is better than 1x2+ over a series of games, even if it doesn't "feel" that way.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:47 am 
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[quote="Dobbsy,08 Jul. 2009, 13:40 "]

The rumoured Wh40k stats for the bLood Sloughterers where:

130 points
I think similar to a dreadnought with armor.
3 Attacks, +D3 on the charge
I think 2 DCCWs and posession, but I'm not as sure on those

BL, how does this translate to the Epic arena? What does your wondrous 40k to Epic changing machine say about it?

Remember folks, please give me feedback on what is there. it all helps decipher a better list.

IT'S NOT SET IN STONE!!  :agree:
My Wh40-to-Epic machine deaslonly with shooting attacks.

But here a go nevertheless:

Blood Slaughterer (Khorne)
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 3+ 3+ -
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Power Blades (base contact) Assault weapons Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+2)

Notes: Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Walker.

And for the Cannon of Khorne, Doom Blaster and Tower of Skulls i made up this stats (thelast two from the Apocalypse datasheets):

Chaos Cannon of Khorne (Khorne)
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 4+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Warpcannon 30cm MW2+ Titan Killer(1), Slow-firing

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Fearless.


Chaos Doom Blaster (Khorne)
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
War Engine 15cm 4+ 5+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
4 x Quad Mortar 30cm 1BP Slow-firing, Indirect Fire, Disrupt

Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Doom Blasters' reactor explodes. The Doom Blaster is destroyed and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6.

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Fearless.


Chaos Tower of Skulls (Khorne)
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
War Engine 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Balemaw Cannon         60cm 2 x AP4+/AT4+ Disrupt, Fixed Forward Arc
2 x Skullreaper Cannon 30cm 2 x AP5+/AT6+ -
2 x Doomfire Cannon    15cm 2 x AP6+ -
2 x Twin Skullshredder (15cm) Small arms Extra Attack(+1)

Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Tower of Skulls' reactor explodes. The Tower of Skulls is destroyed and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 4.

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Fearless, Reinforced Armour




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:04 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:01 )

Exceptionally cool idea by Nealhunt.

Is that in regard to bloodrage as an ability for individual units or as a rule for the army as a whole?

Anyone consider bloodrage to be an ability rather than a blanket rule? It can then be placed to the specific units without having to talk about the charge or charge/shoot differences to the rule.




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:08 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 09 Jul. 2009, 01:04 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:01 )

Exceptionally cool idea by Nealhunt.

Is that in regard to bloodrage as an ability for individual units or as a rule for the army as a whole?

For Berzerker type units I guess. How wide you want to cast that net is debatable.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:12 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:39 )

Ignoring the averages is why everyone loses money in vegas.

2x4+ really is better than 1x2+ over a series of games, even if it doesn't "feel" that way.

you take your $50 and I will give you 2 dice to roll a 4+ to double your money

I will take my $50 and roll 1 dice at 2+ to win x1.66 of the amount.

My odds feel a little safer if not as rewarding.

Meh!

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:18 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:47 )

But here a go nevertheless:

I really like the idea of individual stats for these things as I have the minis and you are bringing a smile to my face  :grin: see!

I do have to ask however if we need stats on all the Khorne assault engines. I have seen epic become more simplified in the past by taking out such flavour as is evident in the ork army list as an example. Do we want to bring such individualistic choices back into the game or just term these under 'Khorne Assault Engines'?

I am happy to use my models as either (as long as I get to use them), but I am wondering what such a change will mean for other lists.

Note: referring specifically to the Chaos Tower of Skulls (Khorne) as the example from the post above




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:32 am 
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At one point you mention 'the berzerker formation' and yet it relates to all forces

typo from cut and paste!

On the question of which units the rule applies to I wanted to say all WE infantry units as I'd prefer we didn't apply it to vehicles but I foresaw people arcing up as to why it wouldn't apply to Daemon engines etc as they're probably a little berserk themselves... guess I'm trying to out-think myself on occasion.  :whistle:
Which do people prefer?

Applying it as a unit note rule could work too if people like the idea - I'd just add the line note: Berserk

Neal - interesting idea. How do others feel about it? It does mean you could lose expensive Land Raider transports if you so chose.... Should we, like E&C mentioned, just stick with what we have and still force the zerks' to withdraw? It is one less rule addition even if it is implanted into Blood Rage as well.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:10 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 09 Jul. 2009, 01:12 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:39 )

Ignoring the averages is why everyone loses money in vegas.

2x4+ really is better than 1x2+ over a series of games, even if it doesn't "feel" that way.

you take your $50 and I will give you 2 dice to roll a 4+ to double your money

I will take my $50 and roll 1 dice at 2+ to win x1.66 of the amount.

My odds feel a little safer if not as rewarding.

Meh!

Dobbsy: You're not gambling for a single result here (your bet), you're rolling to hit with multiple dice and hoping for as many hits as possible so as to kill lots of enemies!


Let's assume we have twenty Berzerker units, or at least twenty opportunities for Berzerker units to make attacks during the entire game (not unreasonable for a game where perhaps the majority of your units will be Khorne Berzerkers!).

Simply, find where the line crosses the 50% mark, and that's where you find the average number of hits the Berzerkers should achieve in the game, all else being equal.

As you will note, the average number of hits for the 1x 2+ Berzerkers is about 16 and a half, whilst the average number of hits for the 2x 4+ Berzerkers is 20.

So across the the course of the game, the 20 Berzerker units will apply 3.5 more hits if they have 2x 4+ attacks, than if they have a single 2+ attack.

Yes as you say they'll roll more misses, but at the same time, as the chart below shows, they'll also roll more hits!

And you still feel that a single 2+ attack is better than 2x 4+ attacks?




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:17 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 09 Jul. 2009, 02:18 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ 09 Jul. 2009, 00:47 )

But here a go nevertheless:

I really like the idea of individual stats for these things as I have the minis and you are bringing a smile to my face  :grin: see!

I do have to ask however if we need stats on all the Khorne assault engines. I have seen epic become more simplified in the past by taking out such flavour as is evident in the ork army list as an example. Do we want to bring such individualistic choices back into the game or just term these under 'Khorne Assault Engines'?

I am happy to use my models as either (as long as I get to use them), but I am wondering what such a change will mean for other lists.

Note: referring specifically to the Chaos Tower of Skulls (Khorne) as the example from the post above

Well you shoul note that Apocalypse makes Baneblade sized War Engines with DC3 out of the Doom Blaster and the Tower of Skulls.

So the old models would be to small and still count as Khorne Daemonic Assault Engines.

Oh and i forgot:

Slaughterfiend (Khorne)
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battle Cannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Battle Claws (base contact) Assault weapons Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+2)

Notes: Infiltrators, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Walker, Transport (may carry one Berzerker unit. Embarking on a Slaughterfiend counts as entering Dangerous Terrain.




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:11 am 
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Dobbsy: You're not gambling for a single result here (your bet), you're rolling to hit with multiple dice and hoping for as many hits as possible so as to kill lots of enemies

hey I'm no gambling man! :D you should aim that at Frogbear  :;):

I do have a question or two though....

What if you take it on an individual formation of 8 and you degrade that formation each time it gets into combat?

Considering that most formations that sustain contact with the enemy formations wither as they go I'm guessing the %'s go way down.... I find most formations in a game get to make 2-3 contacts if they're lucky - be it shooting or assault. By then they're either broken or destroyed.... which makes it more important that that individual formation hit as many times as it can early. 2+ still looks better to me.

Also the percentages are way different when it comes to individual die rolls. Each die is its own entity.

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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:17 am 
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To echo E&C (nice one on supporting your argument with graphs!  :agree: ) there are several ways of looking at it.

1x2+ probability of missing entirely: 1/6
2x3+ probability of missing entirely: 1/9
2x4+ probability of missing entirely: 1/4

So yes, each individual stand will wiff slightly more with 2x4+ and considerably less with 2x3+. That said, even over just a few stands, the probability of a freakish mishap decreases dramatically.

2x4+ is arguably better than 2+, and 2x3+ is undeniably better in every way.


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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:21 am 
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Yes, 2x4+ has a slightly higher chance of getting no hits, but importantly it also gets the same chance of getting 2 hits, which 1x2+ doesn't.

Again, the more bases you roll with, the less the chance of 2x4+ rolling worse than 1x2+.

It averages out better, but 2x3+ averages out way, way better. Too much better.

Having said all that, I'd still prefer 2+ for two reasons. Firstly, because I like to keep the number of dice thrown in Epic to a minimum, and secondly because I don't think Berzerkers are noticably underpowered compared to the other cult marine choices.




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 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:18 am 
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Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if a formation (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, it must perform an Engage action against an enemy formation it can succesfully reach. Note that if there are no enemy formations in range to be engaged the formation may use its engagement move as a normal move.

The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.


Would this not be better if it said the closest enemy fm to better represent the blood rage induced frenzy?

Also, i think that bloodrage would be better if it was applied as a unit note because it makes the list easier to manage.  You can then dole out the rule to selected vehicles and war engines and not have it affect vehicles as a whole.

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