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Anyone got a review of the French rules?

 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Or give the harridan/trygon synapse but limit the type of brood they can control.

But I should add I view this debate as a tempest in a thimble.





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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 03 Jul. 2009, 03:47 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 03 Jul. 2009, 02:53 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 03 Jul. 2009, 02:41 )

We now have two identical formations, yet one of them will vanish at the end of the turn. That's the inconsistancy I'm referring to, and even Hena admits it's a problem.

Yes, because the Synapse Swarm Raveners were more closely linked to the Hive Mind and, therefore, feel Its loss that much more keenly.

Do you have any background or other game rules quote that can justify this, or is this just your own idea? ...
...how can it "feel a loss keenly"? I think you're assigning attributes to tyranids that they are do not possess in order to justify the current rules.

The rules should change to match the background, not the other way around.

I feel Zombocom's point here is very good, one must be wary of anthropomorphising the alien conciousness of the Tyranid Brood Creatures.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:20 )

Or give (some of) the harridan(s)/trygon(s) synapse...

That's the solution I'm in favour of.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:01 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 03 Jul. 2009, 14:45 )

a) Take "brood" away from Gargoyles and Raveners and let these "independant" creatures be added to Synapse swarms.

Umm... that's same as current situation only reversed. So it wouldn't really help.

Well, if you think it through, IMHO it may help. By letting the "independant" Gargoyles and Raveners join synapse swarms or form part of an independent swarm, you get what Chroma seems to want while the creatures also act in a consistent way.

If the Harridan dies or when the Synapse dies in both cases these creatures will remain on table as an independant formation. Although adding them to a synapse formation does allow it to be a little more resilient, this is balanced because they give BMs to the formation if they are killed.

We can choose whether they can be 'respawned' by putting them in the relevant section of the army list. I would recommend reverting to the three sections we had in earlier versions in which only the Common and Uncommon creatures could re-spawn, only some of which get the "Brood" attribute.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:43 pm 
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Some idea:
- Delete Brood from Gargoyles and Raveners (so obvioulsy they can't be spawned which also removes the issue that both Gargoyles and Raveners tend to be the most favoured units to be spawned).
- Change Common Brood and Uncommon Brood to Common Creature and Uncommon Creature
- Specify that any Common and Uncommon Creature can be part of a Synapse Swarm.
- Specify that Common and Uncommon Creatures in a Synapse Swarm don't generate Blastmarkers when killed as long as the Synapse live (this is a part of the Synapse special ability).




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Delete Brood from Gargoyles and Raveners


Of all the lesser creatures, Gargoyles and Raveners make the most sense in Spawning, as Gargoyles 'fly down' to join the battle and Raveners 'tunnel up'.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:22 )

I feel Zombocom's point here is very good, one must be wary of anthropomorphising the alien conciousness of the Tyranid Brood Creatures.

Why, cuz they'll bite us?  I must say I actually quite enjoy the way both yourself, E&C, and Zombo will parse other people's posts in the worst possible way; it makes me laugh every time I read it, it's like you're almost incapable of giving the benefit of the doubt.

It's a game, gentlemen, it's all made up, it's not elaborately and logically designed with an eye to detail and realism by the original writers, it's a collection of "cool concepts", that aren't always that plausible or well thought out; there really is *very* little text on the matter; and I'd love to see some of your references, Zombo.

It's not an "emotional" feeling when the Synapse link is disrupted, it's that a lower end creature will feel, as in "experience the effects of", the loss of that link more significicantly the more closely connected to the Synapse the creature is.

The Tyranids appear to operate in a "hierarchical network", so that knocking out a lower tier node affects everything downstream of it, at least momentarily, but often catastrophically, until another node reconnects those lower tiers, and it's also implied that there are different "strengths" of these network connections.  Yet, some creatures can operate fairly well on their own, even without local Synapse support... yet, when top-tier organisms, Norn Queens or Hive Ships say, are taken out, it appears to affect all downstream creatures, even the "independents".

Doesn't it stand to reason that creatures more closely tied to a local Synapse creature (i.e., part of its swarm) would suffer more from the loss of said Synapse link than a creature that had been sent out without such a close Synapse link?

And, as an aside: from the Hive Tyrant in the Codex Tyranids:

"All Hive Tyrants are highly psychic, and their relationship to the Hive Mind is closer than even that of Tyranid Warriors"

If I had been the one to write that here, I'm sure I would've been called out on thinking Tyranids had "relationship"s or could feel "closer" to one another.  *laugh*  The Hive Tyrant has been referred to as a "consort" before!  Does that mean the Tyranids have wedding ceremonies as well?

It's just using human words (the only words we got!) to describe an alien (made-up!) concept... a metaphor, as it were.  I really don't think anyone thought I meant that the lesser Tyranid creatures were crying and lonely when I said "feel the loss"...  :_(




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:55 pm 
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It's not an "emotional" feeling when the Synapse link is disrupted, it's that a lower end creature will feel, as in "experience the effects of", the loss of that link more significicantly the more closely connected to the Synapse the creature is.


The point is that this is your belief as to what happens Chroma, one that several here disagree with.

I'm not parsing your post in the worst possible way, I just disagree with you.

My impression of what the Tyranids do when within and without of Synapse range is clearly different to your impression, and that's all. Several agree with me that there's an issue here (or a dichotomy, as Hena called it), but there's obviously no clear consensus as to what the best solution is.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:57 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:55 )

I'm not parsing your post in the worst possible way, I just disagree with you.

You "disagree" that the loss of Synapse affects creatures linked to that Synapse?  If that's the case, why bother modelling anything with Synapse at all?

The whole concept of how to fight Tyranids is "kill the big ones", with that being implied to be the Synapse Creatures... because that is what disrupts the Bugs.

Of course, bigger doesn't always mean more important in a swarm, as some Ultramarines found out on MacCragge...




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:57 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:55 )

I'm not parsing your post in the worst possible way, I just disagree with you.

You "disagree" that the loss of Synapse affects creatures linked to that Synapse?  If that's the case, why bother modelling anything with Synapse at all?

I disagree that creatures far away from Synapse range should be more reliable than those within synapse range (which is what I feel the current ERC rules do), and I disagree that creatures nearby to a synapse creature that dies will instantly quit the battlefield unless they can find another Synapse nexus (which incontrovertibly is what the ERC rules do).

To me, instinctive behaviour doesn't naturally equate to 'hide'; I find that the French solution (massive initiative penalty) to be more inline with the background (scarce as it is) and certainly the Warhammer 40,000 rules, which has a nigh-identical analogue of the 'take an initiative test and if you fail then you may only do the Hold order' mechanic for creatures out of Synapse range / creatures whose Synapse creatures die.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:07 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 14:44 )

Delete Brood from Gargoyles and Raveners


Of all the lesser creatures, Gargoyles and Raveners make the most sense in Spawning, as Gargoyles 'fly down' to join the battle and Raveners 'tunnel up'.

Ok. Makes sence (but it doesnt remove the problem that these two units are always spawned in favour of Gaunts if i interpret the battlereports correctly).
- So then change the Brood special ability so that this are creatures wo NEED Synapses to be effective. If the formation looses its Synapse units with theBrood special ability are removed.
- Add Spawnable(X) to all units which now have Brood. This is exactly what the name implies: Units with the Spawnable special ability can be spawned for (X) spawning points.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 13:59 )

I disagree that creatures far away from Synapse range should be more reliable than those within synapse range (which is what I feel the current ERC rules do), and I disagree that creatures nearby to a synapse creature that dies will instantly quit the battlefield unless they can find another Synapse nexus (which incontravertably is what the ERC rules do).

To me, instinctive behaviour doesn't naturally equate to 'hide'.

Creatures "far away" from Synapse range aren't "more reliable", as I've expressed before, they suffer a *lot* more from Blast markers; that's a measure of "reliablilty" you seem to be purposefully ignoring.

And your "instantly quit the battlefield" is, again, hyperbole, as the Synapse-less swarm can still act and do things, support, move towards Synapse, etc.

To take your concept would seem to imply that the units left in a Synapse-less swarm should be able to go about individually, each as their own formation; since nothing is directly in charge of them any more, why would they stay in the same "swarm"?  

The "current ERC" rules are actually supposed to be showing that lack of cohesion by the creatures wandering off to later be re-drafted by other Synapse creatures via spawning.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Creatures "far away" from Synapse range aren't "more reliable", as I've expressed before, they suffer a *lot* more from Blast markers; that's a measure of "reliablilty" you seem to be purposefully ignoring.

I'm not ignoring that fact, but as I've already said I regard that drawback as minor compared to the benefits of:
- Keeping an extra activation.
- Not fleeing when the Synapse creature dies.

And your "instantly quit the battlefield" is, again, hyperbole, as the Synapse-less swarm can still act and do things, support, move towards Synapse, etc.
You choose to ignore the second part of that sentence which states 'unless they can find another Synapse nexus', in order to present my words as hyperbole.

Pot and Kettle?

To take your concept would seem to imply that the units left in a Synapse-less swarm should be able to go about individually, each as their own formation; since nothing is directly in charge of them any more, why would they stay in the same "swarm"?  
Because their instinctive behaviour would be to stick together as a swarm?
Because to let them split up into 20 different minor formations breaks the game?
Because the Hive Mind still retains a weak control over them, as evidenced by Gaunts obeying your commands 30% of the time in W40k, and Gargoyles obeying your commands 90% of the time.

The "current ERC" rules are actually supposed to be showing that lack of cohesion by the creatures wandering off to later be re-drafted by other Synapse creatures via spawning.
And I disagree that those creatures just 'wander off' if they're not near a Synapse creature. They don't in Warhammer 40,000, they don't in BFG. Only in Epic do they lose interest in battle entirely if left out of range of Synapse for too long.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:20 pm 
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To take your concept would seem to imply that the units left in a Synapse-less swarm should be able to go about individually, each as their own formation; since nothing is directly in charge of them any more, why would they stay in the same "swarm"?  


As swarm/hive/herd/pack creatures they tend to stick together and act together.




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