Reference sheet.

Edit - left off the frag launchers!

Edit - Redioactivity reduced.

Edit - Titan weapons and other ERC changes no longer 'red'.

Edit - Added BL's s's and followed his numbering

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Ow!  My eyes!  

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Neal

Thats what you get for either a) living in a dark gothic world or b) having your moniotr brightness turned up.

I guess I could make those background colours a little more translucent...

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Huh, Salamanders are the radioactive chapter.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I prefer to think they are some of the few goodish guys int eh Imerpium!

Or harlequins given the reaction

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Why put colour in play-test documents anyway?  I'd say leave the "graphic design" for when it's completed.

Not sure how a "bright green with black text" is going to print in greyscale anyway... cuz I'm sure not printing that out in colour to playtest!

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Radioactivity reduced for those who lack protective goggles.

As to why - well it wouldn't be right without lots of Green everywhere!

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

You have the updated Titan weapon stats marked as experimental.


Your Land Raider Redeemer stats are beastly.

EDIT:

You should call it a 'Salamanders Land Raider Redeemer' as you're diverging with the ERC stats (yet intend this list to be included in the ERC Armybook).

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Few people are perfect.


I dissagree, having used it lots with FF3,/2+ and 2 15cm 3+ IC shots, it still failed to set the world alight, as did I think Neal find when he used it a bit and various people faced it, including Rug and Ginger with no comment.
This is the 30cm version which is a concession to other lists who will be able to fly it around cheaply and has worse shooting and worse FF. But then again I expect it to a) change lots based on everyone else getting round to fiddling/arguing/faffing with it and subsequently b) come down in price as a consequence in this list.
How do you think its beastly? I'm still failing to 'get' the problem after playing with it lots (bear in mind its practical to get at most 2-4 in a competitive list under all the builds I tried, unless you wish to go wild and use them as terminator transports and forgo Flak).


If its a choice between
Using something that has recieved no testing and was thought up based on a chat online with a bunch of people who hadn't used it
Or
Using something that has been tested in a restrictive list which minimises any potential problems

I will be going for the latter in this case.

Since no doubt the various Redeemer stats will undergo several changes until they settle on whatever there is no reason to upset the balance here until they do.

I actually don't even know what are the current proposed stats for others to start playtesting with.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Regardless, it needs to be called a 'Salamanders Land Raider Redeemer' if you're set on diverging from the ERC stats.



Well Land Raider Crusaders are too good with the 5+ MWFF shot in my opinion, and your stats will have the same average number of FF hits overall (1 per tank), but will have an increased chance to have a Macro hit as you've gone to FF4+ instead.

In a straight comparison with the stock Land Raider, it has about equivilent ranged firepower, with an AP bias instead of AT, with the MW shot making up for the lack of range, but is much better in a Firefight.

All that for only 10pts more?


Incidentally, you've upped the FF of the normal land raider to 4+ and gone for a 25pt price discount on it... I think Hena's right in that a FF4+ Land Raider is worth about 85pts, not 75... which just makes your Redeemer stats/price look even better.




I've followed Hena(the Marine Champion)'s lead and adopted his proposed test stats in the Blood Angels army list.

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Hows that? They have one 4+ attack, not 2. Thats on average 1/2 a hit.



Its the same cost actually, all the raiders bar the Helios are 85 points.
I dissagree on the firepower being equal.
LR
2 45cm AT4+
1 30cm AP4+
LRR
1 30cm AP4+/AT4+
1 30cm AP3+ IC
1 15cm MW5+

Better AT, worse AP, better range with AT being scarce in a marine list and even more here as its harder to get all those warhounds. FF is 4+ compared to 4+ MW which I think balances the firepower out. Everything else equal.



Where are those stats written incidentally?

And do you seriously think a completely untested tank will go into a semi official rules release?

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Ah I thought you were using the +1 attack stats from the Crusader again, my mistake.

Even so, I do reckon it's about equal at range, and clearly better in a Firefire (same stat, but Macro).



I used Hena's proposed stats in the Blood Angels army list.



It's much better to go with underpowered stats instead of overpowered stats.

The Siegemasters & the Stormhammer have taught us that, no?

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Well I must say testing to date with more powerful stats didn't show any problems. So in fact this is the toned down unit. For all i know the stats you've got are worse (better for air assault etc). I'll check when I get back from terminator salavation!

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Hena's stats have worse ranged shooting than yours, and FF3+ instead of FF4+ macro (Which I'd say is also worse).


Prepare to be underwhelmed.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

A small typo, LR Prometheus should be (2M)

Also, I am not clear how the LRR stats should be used in assault; does the MM confer Macro to the single FF4+ dice? If so, you might have to specify this in the notes.

On the whole debate about LR stats, this is really a bit of a 'storm in a teacup'. Even at +75 per upgrade you are really hard put to use more than four Land Raiders of any type in the standard 3000 point army, and it is usually be rare for these to see significant action in the game. Adding LRs to a formation makes it generally much tougher to hurt, but does not add appreciably to the offensive capabilities, even if it is MWFF4+, basically because all the infantry get MWFF anyway! IMHO adding the MM to the Salamander's LRR is in line with the theme of the army list, while that may not be the case for other lists - but that is the joy of the separate lists.

To the list in general, from the deafening silence on the other stats are we to take it that increasing Dreadnought armour to 3+ has general approval, along with making the normal LR FF4+? What about giving all the infantry short range MW?

I know when I faced them I had a tough time in assaults, but then you learn to shoot this list to pieces with long range fire where you can.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt