Essentially thats what i'm doing Nothing radically to change the lists layout.

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I'm looking forwards to the next update then.

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Perhabs Saturday or Sunday. I will add the Blight Drone too but expect that their stats could change upon release of Vraks 3.

And just for note: Red Corsairs aren't "recently turned traitors" they are "traitors recently turned Chaos".

The three stages are:
Traitor Legion Chaos Space Marines (eg Black Legion):
The original Legions turned traitor and devoted to Chaos. Some are so devoted Chaos worshippers that they are Clut Marines and/or have acsess to God-specific Daemons.
They don't have acsess to modern equipment.

Renegade Chapter Space Marines (eg Sould Drinkers):
Recently turned traitor Chapters. Have largely remained their original Chapterr oganisation and modern equipment but have starting to erode and loose euqipment due to severed ties to the Mechanicum.

Renegade Chapter Chaos Space Marines (eg Red Corsairs):
Renegade Chapters which are traitors for solong that they have started to worship Chaos willingly or unwillingly. Modern equipment is almost lost and older/easier designs are adopted or new invented. Other Chaos warbands have come to join with them for different reasons of their own.

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Indeed, but your 'Soul Drinkers' example would use the Codex Space Marines army list and are essentially irrelevant for this discussion.

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I know. I only pointed it out as a "recently turned Traitor" example

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As the list already has a Cult Marines as support formation how about only allowing God specific Daemon War Engines (Brass Scorpion, Plaguereaper, Subjugator) to that formation as upgrade? An dif yes then in addition to or instead of Daemon non-War Engines?
So the Retinue core formation can only take the God specific Daemon non-War Engines (Blood Slaugterers, Blight Drones, Silver Tower, Slaanesh Knights) but only if they already are upgraded with Cult Marines (which replace CSM units, they aren't added to the formation).

Defilers and Desecrators should be available for all.

Note that i will use Khorne Daemon Assault engines stats until i can have a look at the stats of the Blood Slaughterer.

Bugger that there are no DC2 or DC3 Tzeentch War Engines

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Rumoured Blood Slaughterer stats:
130 points
I think similar to a dreadnought with armor.
3 Attacks, +D3 on the charge
I think 2 DCCWs and posession, but I'm not as sure on those.

Soooo...just a Chaos Dreadnought without any ranged attack but with Invulnerable Save, +2EAMW and CC3+ or CC2+?

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Those stats are too diffuse to be able to assign any Epic stats at this stage I think.

If it's to go into the army list, have it in but greyed-out, to show where it will be available in the fullness of time.

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Other rumours:
The brass scorpion get a boost at 750 points.

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V3.11 is now available in the first posting.

Change log:
- removed Plaguereaper.   *sniff*
- removed Greater Silver Tower and Subjugator.
- added several Daemon Engines.
- changed Daemon Engine Summoning formation.
- changed Daemon Engine upgrade.
- added an Appendix with additional ideas for friendly/scenario games concerning Summoning and Chaos Factions.

Comments are welocme
Question: Should i add the Subjugator to the Chaos Titan Legion section? At last together with the Chaos Warhound it is the only Chaos Titan in Wh40k (Apocalypse).

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Comments:

- Remove the Daemon Assault Engine. Khorne already has a Daemon Engine in the list (The Brass Scorpion). If you wanted a second Daemon Engine for him, I'd prefer to see the Blood Slaughterer make an appearance (Even if it has to appear in grey text until the stats are released).


- The document headder reads 'Black Legion Formations'


- Give an entire seperate section/page to the optional rules, or preferably remove them entirely. This is an army list, and the proper place for such optional rules is in a supplement. If you want to try alternative rules then actually try them, don't have a half-way house that will never be tested.


- I prefer Zombocom's Brass Scorpion stats.


- Hell Talons are sub-par, I suggest dropping the formation cost to 175pts.


- Defiler's battlecannon is listed at range 45cm.




And a contraversial thought:


Remove the 'chosen' formation entirely.

The 'forlorn hope' formation was added to the Black Legion army list because it was suffering from activation problems, and was frankly a rather awkward patch to try and fix the problem.

The Forlorn Hope has ended up, like Space Marine Scouts before them, as a cheap formation that can be drop-podded, causing much mayhem for few points.

Kill it.

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- The Daemon Assault Engine is only a placeholder until i get hold of the stats for the Blood Slaughterer. Preferably i would want to have an Armoured Vehicle and a War Engine for each Chaos God.

- I know about the document header. No clue how to change it.

- Ok the Appendix will be on an entirely new page. I actually thought about it, was distracted with something more importand and then forgot it  

- I thought i used zombocoms Brass Scorpion stats?

- Hell Talons are the same as proposed for the BlackLegion.

- Damn at the Battlecannon. Will fix it should be 75cm.

- I'm not sure about the Choosen. They are supposed to be the Veterans and/or Possessed of the CSMs. To act as Infiltrators/Scouts is their roles in the Wh40k rules and fluff. If dropping the formation (which for now i'm reluctant to) then perhabs as an Upgrade as with Cult Marines? So adding Scout or Infiltrator to 4 of the CSM units in the Retinue?

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Then have the Blood Slaughterer in the army list section, but greyed out.

Preferably i would want to have an Armoured Vehicle and a War Engine for each Chaos God.

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BL: I went for CC3+/FF3+ 20cm infiltrator in the end.

DC2 with a 4+ save is pretty vulnerable, so it needs something to make up for it, and a khorne engine deserves CC3+ no matter the 40k stats

20cm infiltrator fits better with defilers, and I have a mixed formation in my list...

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

@Blood Slaughterer: Can do it.

@Greater Silver Tower: Well its an LotD Silver Tower with DC2 and a mor epowerful Beam of Power.

@Appendix: Not until the official BlackLegion army adopts the stuff in the Appendix i would implement this as "rules you should use" in the Red Corsairs list. But i justwanted thatthey are at least somwhere to publically read.

@Brass Scorpion: Actually you E&C used it with RA5+ not zombocom   According tothis thread he proposed a 4+ save too.
@zombocom: FF3+ could be justified, CC3+ perhabs. Looked up the rules again. Actually it charges the same way as Beasts/Cavalry (read Rough Riders) so i will give it Infiltrator but reduce the speed to 20cm (but still emember the coments about the Trygon).
What about a 3+ save instead of 4+ or RA5+? It has 13/13/10 compared to a defilers 12/12/10 so it lies somewhere between a Predator and a Serpent (which has 12/12/10 too but effectively 14/14/10) 

@Hell Talon i will think about it but want some more input fromother guys. In the last Turney i attended they performed pretty decent.

@Choosen/Possessed: It's a possibility.

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