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Thousand Sons List

 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:54 am 
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I'm not very well up on list development of any kind but I was just wondering the reason behind the 0-2 restrictions on terminators and disk riders. This limits their use in larger games where you could possibly reach your maximum allowed and have no other options available.

Would allowing 1 per each rubric formation be overpowered? What about 1 or other per rubric; disks or termies?

Just thinking out loud but am trying to form a nice list to incorporate the warp palaces to see how they fare in a game and am rapidly running out of points >eek!<

D.





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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Anything that doesn't have the stats should use Black Legion unit stats.  I just haven't put them in yet.  If it's not noted, it's not Fearless.

0-2 restrictions - Those are in for background reasons.  There shouldn't be an all-Chosen/Possessed/Sorcerer Thousand Sons force.  I know they don't scale very well like that, but I want to see them restricted somehow.  I could put it back to the "per Retinue" structure like it was before if that's preferred.  I just thought a 0-X would make reading the army list easier. That would be something like:
Core formations:
1+ Retinue (really needs a new name...)
Armor
Towers

1 "support" formation per Retinue (no 0-2 restrictions):
Terminators
Disc Riders

WE/Air (1/3 as normal)


Warp Palaces:  Please try to work them into some test games.  Once the basic retinue was sorted out, these have been the most controversial item.  I really need feedback.

2 of them cost as much as a Reaver.  They pack more firepower than a Reaver (more like a Warlord titan in that respect), but with the lack of shields they can be a lot more fragile.  I've had opponents complain that they pack too much firepower for the points but that's usually in a case where they were unable to focus on them for some reason (e.g. a city fight where they could hide and pop-up with impunity).

Personally, I prefer them in pairs because of their fragility.  Both Towers and Palaces have such a high firepower-to-unit ratio that they are priority targets.  Without larger formations, they just dry up and blow away under fire.  Even with larger formations, it's not all that hard to suppress one of a pair of Palaces.

I'd also especially like to hear about any attempts to use a Palace Summoning tactic.  With a couple Thralls and their built-in Daemonic Focus, it should be feasible to summon a Lord of Change as an adjunct to a single Palace to boost its durability.  It doesn't add any appreciable firepower, but it's only 165 points (Pact, 2x Thralls, Greater Daemon) to probably add 3 DC to the formation.  Or it might fail and be a waste of 165 points...
Either way, I haven't had a chance to try it out.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:51 am 
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Came up with a rough list for a game at the weekend. Want to try out towers and palace so:

Retinue + land raider + 3 deceivers + Pact(poss??) 750
Armour - 4 pred 2 land raider - 500
4 Towers - 360
6 terminators + DP 530
Warp Palace + pact + 2 thralls - 450
Discs 375

I have about 100 points left in 3k and am torn between losing the pacts and getting a doomwing squadron or going for lesser daemons.

I am a little concerned with only 6 activations so far.

Any suggestions?

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Disc Riders are 325.

It's hard to give suggestions without knowing your intended strategy.  It looks like a big TSons garrison to start out as close to the enemy as possible to distract from the shooty stuff moving up from behind.  Termies in reserve as a hammer and one formation of Disc Riders for speed.

I'm guessing the LR in the Retinue is there so the first AT hit is 4+RA instead of hitting the Deceivers?  Or maybe you wanted the LR to make it harder to suppress the AA?  Both?  I'm a little bit concerned that this formation won't produce 750 points of results.

I'm interested to see if it works.  I'm not sure if there's enough material to oppose the opponent's maneuver, but I suppose you can always go for grouping the objectives and run a hammer "hey, diddle, diddle, straight up the middle."

Summoning:
Without a GD to summon, I don't think using the Palace to summon is all that great of a plan.  You'd end up with a shooty War Engine linked to a bunch of assault troops.  If you want to use a summoning strategy, I'd say move the Pacts to the Teminators and Disc Riders.  You know they will be assaulting, whereas the Palace probably won't.  The retinue will try but it will be easy for the enemy to avoid and even if it does, it probably won't need the help of daemons.  If you drop the Thralls, that leaves an even 160 for LDs, which is 8.  That's enough for about 3-4 assaults, depending on how many survive from turn to turn.

Non-Summoning:
I get 185 points left if you drop Pacts and Thralls.  That's enough for a formation of Doomwings.  It's also enough to convert the Terminators into 2 formations of 4 instead of one formation of 6, with the DP.  Either option adds an activation.  Or, if you drop the LR and one of the Decievers, you have almost enough for another Retinue.  Skim a Terminator or the DP and you have another big hard formation.

Activations:
If you are concerned with activations, I would drop a pair of the Deceivers and take Doomwings.  The one Deceiver in the Retinue wouldn't be hard to suppress, but the Doomwings give greater area AA coverage and, of course, another activation.  That could be done with or without a summoning approach.

===

On a (sort of) separate note...

What are your general strategies with the list?  I only have a few that have worked for me consistently.

First, the only one that worked for a long while, the line of TSons (2-3 Retinues), backed by fire support.  Try to maintain a cohesive line long as the infantry close and try to get them into position to assault before the enemy has crushed the support formations.

I've also tried a sort of modified "fencing in" version.  1 Retinue garrison, 1 Retinue with Ahriman's Chosen, and one large Terminator formation, backed by fire support.  Move the garrison up on turn 1 and keep the fire support alive.  Teleport the 2 formations in the enemy's face on Turn 2, attempting to form a perimeter to pin them down.  If they don't fall for the bait, then you use the teleporters to change on the fly.

I've thought that perhaps with the threat of teleporters that it might be feasible to use more ground transport options.  With substantial teleporters in reserve, it might be more difficult for an opponent to pick off transports without potentially overextending.  It might be possible to maintain a mounted and mobile on-board force longer than the single turn of movement they normally get.  I haven't had a chance to test this theory.

I've also wondered about trying a "summoning swarm" with teleporters and drop pods.  Something like...

2x Retinue in Dreadclaws + Pact and Thralls
Spacecraft
1 Retinue + AC + Pact, Icon, Champion and Thralls
1 Terminator retinue + Pact, Icon, Champion and Thralls
2x Doomwings
300 points or so in daemons (GD + 10 LD)
~3000 points.

Nothing on the board in deployment.  Teleport in.  Two teleporter assaults with daemons  and Thrall MW attacks on the first activation.  Drop the other two formations near the DZ (with orbital barrage and deathwind attacks) and assault with daemons/Thralls on the second activation.  Probably one more Retinue activation and use aircraft to pick at broken formations.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Neal, you totally guessed right with the retinue. I tried this in my last game vs Demiurg (see my website) and was amazed at the firepower put out by the deceivers and 1 land raider.

I think you are right about the thralls and pact on the palace - I really wanted to try summoning the GD but ran out of points very quickly.

I will have a rethink and see what else I can come up with. I will take your suggestions on board regarding adding pacts to either of the (split) terminators or the disks. I have run the disks with flamers before and were very effective.

I think your dreadclaws of doom approach may be used once and once only if I want to keep the guys I have playing epic actually playing me.

The one thing I can count on in the list is the survivability of the rubrics. Gotta love 'em!

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:11 am 
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Would this make a suitable warp palace with suitable alteration?

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:15 am 
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yeah I know but I think that if it's supposed to be a palace then it should be big compared to an infantry model. The silver towers are not on the right scale but then I suppose the larger the vehicle the smaller the scale, right?

I like the model that was shown in the Modelling section but was trying to find an easier alternative to making my own.

Ho hum, back to the drawing board.

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:37 pm 
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I found a "flying saucer" toy that was about 2"/5cm across.  It had a semi-organic looking underside, not entirely different than the underside of the Silver towards.

On that I mounted a central tower that I constructed out of cylindrical beads from a craft shop.  They have a sort of old-Persian pattern in the surface.  The top has a hole into which I will eventually mount a clear gemstone bead (like the Necron plastic bits).  Around that central tower I mounted a variety of other towers.  I used a Silver Tower top on each, and primarily the towers from the MegaGargant bits for the others.

They seem a little bit on the light side for 4DC, but not by much and I have an idea for mounting a couple more bits to give them more heft.

I've been meaning to finish up the paint job and take pics, but I primed them on a very hot day and it ended up grainy.  I haven't figured out a good way to fix that yet.  Plus, I'm contemplating adding stuff





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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Well in that case I'm glad I didn't give in to my idea of using 40K necron destroyer bases as the basis for my warp palaces.

Was planning on putting them together, cutting slightly and glue 2 together to get an oval shape .

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Had a rethink on using my warp palaces and silver towers for my next battle:

retinue, chosen,pact, champion,icon - 600
terminators(5), pact, D Prince - 475
Disc Riders, pact - 350
Predators(4) - 300
Silver Towers(6) - 540
Palace,pact,2 thralls - 440
9 lesser, 1 greater daemon - 280

Total: 2985

I had a chance to use daemons in a hasty LaTD game at weekend and would like to see what I can do with a TS force. Retinue and terminators can teleport on whenever I need them but will wait until I get the other formations into position.

My 2 concerns are the lack of mobility from my teleporting units and the lack of firepower from the retinue. Is there a reason why they have no ranged weapons save for firefighting? How does 15cm bolters sound, similar to Fire Warriors, just spit balling.

On another note, my firelords went down awfully quickly in my game against the squats. My opponent suggested using DC2 for the firelords but I didnt know what difference that would make - possibly reinforced 4+ and invulnerable.

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:09 am 
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Got a game in last night vs Squats. 4k and I got to use my new toys - warp palaces and silver towers. Got an idea to use tau drones as tower bases and use the guns to make the main tower. For the warp palaces I am using a necron destroyer base and tau weaponry as towers and structures.

Was a bit concerned with towers fragility but realised that it was a tradeoff for their firepower! My goodness, if they advance and fire and then next turn sustain that is fantastic. The problem is that the enemy will soon realise this and you may not have much left next turn.

The warp palace was also nice to use but I am still concerned about its price. Have you thought about including Daemonic Pact in its price? Also if I take 2 palaces can each one take 2 thralls or is it 2 per choice?

Great game. Bat rep on my site and in the squat discussion thread.

D.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Has anyone the effectiveness of the titans on this list? I'm totally new at this game and am in the process of building up a force, but am totally unsure of what works and what doesn't


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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:10 pm 
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Quote: (Lord of Worms @ 06 Jun. 2009, 20:03 )

Has anyone the effectiveness of the titans on this list? I'm totally new at this game and am in the process of building up a force, but am totally unsure of what works and what doesn't

I've had almost no feedback on the titans.  Generally speaking the weaponry is a bit higher in firepower but a bit shorter ranged and that should hopefully be balanced.

They could stand to have a comparison with E&C's latest AMTL costs and stats.

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 Post subject: Thousand Sons List
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:06 pm 
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Any chance for the Warp Palace to get Void Shields? It seems to be a bit on the weak side with its slow speed.




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