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Red Corsairs (or generic Chaos Space Marines)
zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:25 am 
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It is essentially a DC2 defiler, without a battlecannon, so yes, about twice a defiler in worth.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:32 am 
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Ok. If you want try to test them at 150pts. A battlereport would be cool  :D
What about the other Daemon War Wengines?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:36 am 
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Regardless of its stats in 40k, I would think it should have a CC stat of 3+...

...I mean c'mon, it's Khorne!  :))


====


Other War Engines: I'll look later.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:47 pm 
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If it is really that useless i will think about it :)

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Steve54
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:12 pm 
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What is the focus of the Red Corsairs list? I understood it to represnt relatively recently renegade Marine chapters -namely the Red Corsairs and could be used for other renegade Chapters which are the focus of the latest current 40k codex.

So retaining more SM weaponry and organisation but with Chaos elements. Which as a list has a real niche it can fill.


However the list seems to be becoming a catch-all for all alternative chaos stats/units/ideas etc which are thought up - which seems to move away from the focus of the list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 30 May 2009, 16:12 )

What is the focus of the Red Corsairs list? I understood it to represnt relatively recently renegade Marine chapters -namely the Red Corsairs and could be used for other renegade Chapters which are the focus of the latest current 40k codex.

So retaining more SM weaponry and organisation but with Chaos elements. Which as a list has a real niche it can fill.

That's the niche for it I agree... it's certainly the niche that JJ suggested could be filled (recent Renegades still with loyalist equipment).


However the list seems to be becoming a catch-all for all alternative chaos stats/units/ideas etc which are thought up - which seems to move away from the focus of the list.


I agree that the list should avoid spreading out too much, and should try and keep commonality with the other Chaos army lists statwise wherever practical.

I'm under the impression that the list is currently:
- Chaos Renegades (recent Chaos Traitors) with less Daemon types (Only 'generic' Greater and Lesser Daemons as that's all that recent traitors can summon).
- Renegade Titans (standard configuration instead of Black Legion configuration Titans)
- Chaos aircraft
- 6 Daemon Engines (2 Undivided, and 1 of each for the 4 Gods).
- Where applicable the above have the standard ERC-recommended stat changes applied (Obliterators, Defilers & Desecrators for example).

Oh and it has the Core/Support structure, more fixed formation sizes, and consequently no 'free' Lords, plus the Warlord isn't free.


I am wary of this list using these new stats for the Silver Towers and Subjugator Titans, in the interest of commonality the L&TD stats should probably be used.

I would like to see the Harbinger Bomber added using the ERC-recommended stats (A DC4 bomber IIRC).

Helltalon Fighter Bombers are still pretty unappealing... 150pts for the pair?

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Steve54
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:10 pm 
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I pretty much agree with that E&C - I don't see the need to adopt new stats for subjagator+tower.
Does the list need the breadth of daemon engines that has now. As a recently turned chapter is access to all of these units appropriate? Elaborate constructs like tzeentch skimmers and house devine knights

I would prefer
Undivided - Defiler
Khorne - Brass Scorpion
Nurgle - Blight drone
Tzeentch - shooty tzeentch defiler variant? a construct comparable with the scorpion/drone/defiler
slaanesh - FF defiler variant? as above

I'll go and lie down now after agreeing with you Ben :))

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 30 May 2009, 17:10 )

Does the list need the breadth of daemon engines that has now. As a recently turned chapter is access to all of these units appropriate? Elaborate constructs like tzeentch skimmers and house devine knights

The problem there is the Khorne Brass Scorpion, which is clearly a 'large' or at the least a 'unique' and 'elaborate' Daemon Engine... so why would Khorne get a 'better' Daemon Engine when the others just get Defiler variants?

I would prefer
Undivided - Defiler
Khorne - Brass Scorpion
Nurgle - Blight drone
Tzeentch - shooty tzeentch defiler variant? a construct comparable with the scorpion/drone/defiler
slaanesh - FF defiler variant? as above


My list would go something like:

Undivided - Defiler
Undivided - Desecrator ***
Khorne - Brass Scorpion
Nurgle - Blight Drone
Tzeentch - Silver Tower
Slaanesh - Knight Titan



I think the Nurgle Plague Reaper could be kept for a more specifically Nurgle-themed army list (Both Nurgle Marines & Nurgle L&TD could have it)... it just seems odd for a rapid-reaction force like Renegade Marines to be deploying a Super Heavy Battle Tank.

The Chaos Decimator only sits well with me in the Black Legion army list because it's supposed to be a Siege-cracking style Chaos Marines army list... in other circumstances even the Black Legion probably wouldn't use Decimators.


I have heard that Forgeworld intends to make a Brass Scorpion-sized Nurgle Daemon Engine, which would give both Nurgle and Khorne a Dreadnought-sized Daemon Engine (Blood Slaughterer & Blight Drone) and a War Engine Daemon Engine (Brass Scorpion & as-yet unnanounced Nurgle War Engine).

Possibly due to the dearth of Daemon types there is space for the Blood Slaughterer in this list, but again it might find a better home with a pure Khornate army list.

Overall I believe this list has much fewer unit types than the Black Legion due to having 1 Lesser Daemon type instead of 5, and 1 Greater Daemon type instead of 4, plus the loss of other units like the Decimator and Death Wheel.

In return it gets access to loyalist tech like the Thunderhawk, and access to the smaller Daemon Engines.

I'll go and lie down now after agreeing with you Ben :))

Once a year, when all the stars align... :))


***Normally I'm against inventing wholesale new units, but Jervis explicitly okay'd an AA Defiler variant if Obliterators were to be toned down by the ERC.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:50 pm 
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The list isn't about "recently" turned Regenade Space Marines.
Renegade Chapter Space Marines could use the Codex Astartes armylist and its variants.
The Red Corsairs are Renegade Chapter Chaos Space Marines.
Thats Chaos Space Marines which don't belong to one of the original Legions. So aren't that keen on delving into the deeper mysteries of the Chaos Gods (so no God specific Daemons) but often hire other Renegade Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines to form bigger warbands (so the relative wide range of God specific stuff). Because of this they can field God specific Daemon Engines and have acsess to Cult Marines.
Somewhere i read that Gavin Thorpe said that Cult Marines can't even be made outside their four iconic Legions and the Black Legion (at least in official fluff).

EDIT: Found the quotes:
The lack of a Mark of Tzeentch without being a 'Rubric Marine' is an oversight in the current Codex and highlights what has, in my opinion, been some inconsistent misrepresentation of the cults. We've been doing quite a bit of thinking about this and looking at the original background (pre-first Codex Choas even). The line that anyone can be a bezerker is an error – they really can't. The Berzerkers were created by Angron during a particular time and blessed by Khorne.

This has been further exacerbated by later versions of the Codex blurring the lines between Marked Marines and Cult Marines, so that it is now unclear whether all Khorne-marked Marines are Berzerkers, for example.

On the other hand…

The 40K universe is intended to be large and inclusive. So while you may never see any official background detailing Berzerkers from anyone but the Black Legion and the World Eaters, anyone can create a story for their renegades that involves Fabius Bile, a retro-engineered World Eater, some rabbit kidneys, a ball of string and a transfiguration of some Astral Claws into Berzerkers so that you can include them in your army!

GAV


There are three types of Chaos Space Marine in the original Legions. Firstly, there are four unique Legions which chose (or were chosen!) by a single god. Each of these become utterly unique and examplars of the warriors of their god. The Death Guard were cursed and saved by Nurgle in the warp. The Thousands sons were destroyed and reborn by Ahriman's Rubric. The World Eaters created psychopathic, super-lobotomised warriors dedicated to Khorne. Fulgrinm of the Emperor's children was corrupted by Slaanesh and dragged his Legion down into the cult of pleasure.

Secondly, there were the Legions that never dedicated themselves to one patron and worship them all equally. Some of these warriors may even choose a single god as patron, and bear his mark, but this does not make them Plague Marines or Berzerkers any more than it does any later Renegades that have turned to Chaos adopting the Mark of a God.

Lastly there is the Black Legion who, having once been led by Horus and by nefarious means since, have learned the secrets of these transformations from the original four Legions. So while as a Legion they are not dedicated to a single god over an other, individuals may choose to have the mark of a gods or, going one stage even further, undergo the lobotomisation/ blessing of Nurgle/ rubric/ cult of pleasure initiation to turn them fully into a Noise Marine or whatever. The 'cult' Marines come from either the Black Legion or one of the original Four Cult Legions, and nowhere else.

GAV

Source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199251




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Yes but this army list is named after the Red Corsairs particularly as it represents a chapter that has recently turned to Chaos and thus has the use of a lot of post-heresy equipment like Vindicators, Hunters, Thunderhawks, Battle Barges***, Strike Cruisers etc.

The Badab war (when the Red Corsairs turned traitor) was in 901.M41, only 99 years before the timeline ends.

So, enough time for them to gain allies in the form of Daemon Engines and Titans, and for some to dedicate themselves to the Path of Khorne or Slaanesh or whatever, but not enough time for them all to have had something profoundly Chaotic happen to them that completely changes their doctrine of battle (like Ahriman's Rubric or Nurgle's corruption).



***Actually the Red Corsairs only have a single Battle Barge, but still, one is more than none! :))




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Steve54
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:05 am 
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In agreement with E&C again (faints) - if you don't want this to represent a recently renegade SM chapter, SM organisation and equipment but with chaos elements and downgraded daemons, then it has the wrong name as that what Red Corsairs are.

I don't really see what Gav Thorpes rambles has to do with it though as he basically says do what ever you want and contradict each other.

What I was questioning was whether the list was losing focus - which I think it is in danger of. I like E&Cs list of daemon engines - something for each God but not everything.
Also why the list needs alternative stats for the silver tower+subjagator?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:23 pm 
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In agreement with E&C again (faints)

I could grumble about the Decimator having CC4+ if it would make you feel better? :))

I like E&Cs list of daemon engines - something for each God but not everything.
Aye, nothing really big like a Lord of Battles or a Plague Tower, but enough variety to give each Engine a different role:

Defiler - ranged shooting / close combat
Desecrator - AA cover for Daemon Engines (as it'd be part of their formation in this list structure)
Brass Scorpion - Close Combat & short range shooting power
Blight Drone - Some kind of medium range shooty fast skimmer (Sort of a Daemon Engine Land Speeder).*
Subjugator Daemon Titan - Close Combat Extreme power and speed.**
Silver Tower - Ranged Macro-Weapon shooting skimmer.



Also why the list needs alternative stats for the silver tower+subjagator?

In the absence of new models I have to ask the same question ; if GW were sulpting new models for these that reflected their updated stats then I'd push for the White Dwarf stats to be adopted...

...but in the absence of updated GW models, or ERC-recommended changes, I think this list should go with the official 'lesser' Silver Towers, and the 'greater' Subjugator Titans.



*Warhammer 40,000 stats are rumoured to be something like:
Speed - Fast Skimmer (Same as a Land Speeder or Valkyrie)
AV 12/11/10
1x range 36" Battlecannon
2x Twin Reaper Autocannons

Which would generate stats that looked something like:

Type: Armoured (Light?) Vehicle
Speed: 35cm
Armour : 5+ (4+ if Light Vehicle)
Close Combat: 5+
Firefight: 4+
Weapons:
- Main Gun (name unknown) - Range 45cm, AP4+/AT4+
- 2x Twin Reaper Autocannon - Range 30cm, AP3+/AT5+
Notes: Skimmer, Invulnerable Save.

So, very shooty, but with low armour / LV status it's quite vulnerable to enemy fire, they could fly about in swarms of 7 (because that's Nurgle's sacred number)?


**I could grumble about these being unnessesarily awesome in CC too! :))




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Grimmaw
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:54 pm 
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how about making the hunter an upgrade in the armoured company as well?
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:51 am 
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Problem is that i want to follow a pattern. I want to have for all Chaos Gods a Daeman War Engine with at least DC2 but not bigger as DC3. Tzeentch has no Daemon War Engines apart of the Warp Palace but that thing plays in the same league as the Lord of Battle and the Plague Tower.
If i decide to put in the LatD Silver Tower of Tzeentch then i open the door for including Slaanesh Knights, Khorne Daemon Assault Engines and the Nurgle Contagion Towers.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:09 am 
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I still say go with this little list for the moment:

Undivided - Defiler
Undivided - Desecrator
Khorne - Brass Scorpion
Nurgle - Blight Drone
Tzeentch - Silver Tower
Slaanesh - Knight Titan


That gives 4x AV's, 1x DC2 and 1x DC3... if there were a smaller Slaanesh Daemon Engine I'd say take that one!


I know you'd like to have them faithful to their 40k stats, and so would I to be honest, but there are no new models coming for the Daemon Engines that would enable a boost in size/stats.

So you have to work with what you've got, really, and that means using the L&TD stats, especially if you want this list to gain any traction with the wider community.




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