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Squats or Demiurg?
Squats, the old imperial abhumans       100%  100%  [ 19 ]
Total votes : 19

Squats or Demiurg?

 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Before we get all over-heated I would like to point one thing out.

I want my Squats out on the battlefield.
I don't really care if that's as Squats or as Demiurg.
But until we get one of these up and running and done we're getting nowhere fast (or slow, or at all).

That's my concern. That we get nowhere.
And nowhere because the present testing is to cumbersome.

Clear?
Crystal clear!

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:24 pm 
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So the poll is about where to focus our playtesting, not the actual existence of the lists, the background, or anything like that.  Correct?

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Correct.

I want us able to concentrate on getting my beloved short and grudging ones out. Be that at first as Squat or Demiurg as it comes.
And then the other one. With the same vigour. But later.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:55 pm 
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If you don't, then move on - there is nothing to see here.


Even though we have two lists out there, I would rather that those same people not debunk other people's projects as well.

It seems that if you do happen to mention something, you get shouted down. I know all the work that has gone into blah blah blah, but if there is "nothing to see here", then don't go trolling other people's ideas. Who knows, someone may come up with a better idea, regardless of all the work put into the current lists.

You do not own Epic. Knowing Jervis does not give anyone a right to 'attack' everyone else who does not. Get over it. Bring out the supplement and be happy. Just stop strafing everyone else who has a different opinion.  

Just my own rant at 11:55pm where I am all tired and hungry....




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Even though we have two lists out there, I would rather that those same people not debunk other people's projects as well.

It seems that if you do happen to mention something, you get shouted down. I know all the work that has gone into blah blah blah, but if there is "nothing to see here", then don't go trolling other people's ideas. Who knows, someone may come up with a better idea, regardless of all the work put into the current lists.

You do not own Epic. Knowing Jervis does not give anyone a right to 'attack' everyone else who does not. Get over it. Bring out the supplement and be happy. Just stop strafing everyone else who has a different opinion.  

Just my own rant at 11:55pm where I am all tired and hungry....



Frogbear, I am not trolling or strafing.  Epic: Xenos is a project that we started and have been working on.  Me responding to "Don't bother working on something that is all made up" isn't strafing somebody else's ideas.  So my post is defending the project and the work that has gone into it.

Now you had made a suggestion awhile back about working on a Squat project.  In that post you overtly dismissed everything that had been done without even reviewing it, trying it, or contacting the people who made the lists/fiction, etc.

At that time I suggested to you that, instead of dismissing their work (something you are accusing me of doing here), you try to involve yourself in the project and participate.  The many hands make light work concept.  You chose not to take up my invitation.

Fine. This is voluntary.  No big deal.  But don't go around acusing me of being a troll when I am simply defending the work we've done and trying to get people to understand what we're doing.  How is that 'debunking' somebody else's work?  You think if you post a flippant comment on a thread that is WORK?  Perhaps it is you who should get over it.

As for your last shot across my bow, I know I don't own Epic and you saying something like that defines you as a troll.  If you can comprehend English, try re-reading the post and you will see it is in response to other people dismissing the use of the Demiurg in a manner not consistent with GW when in fact it is.  Like any normal sane person, I am using Jervis' comments -not to bring somebody else's ideas down- but to build ours up.  Those are mutually exclusive ideas and if you can't figure that out then I am sure this post will fall on deaf ears as well.

My comment of "Move on, there is nothing to see here" is taken completely out of context.  In context, you can see that it isn't dismissive.  It is meant to tell people that they aren't required to like everything we're doing or even read it.  That is life.  If you don't like something, then move on.  I'm not going to jam it down your throat.

In the mean time you obviously have a different view on the Squats/Demiurg/etc.  When you ACTUALLY PRODUCE AN IDEA I will try to be less obtuse than you when I comment on it.

EDIT: For reference...
From FrogbearRather than accepting what is out there, I am going back into the past epic games and getting all the fluff together. From there I am going to compare what we have, and then build a force and PDF supplement (although nothing near as impressive as what I have seen on Raiders). Hence I would ask that the squat list at least not be printed till people have a gander at what I may be able to put together this year.

My response...
Frogbear, if I could make a counter-suggestion: Rather than NOT accepting what is already out there, why don't you try tinkering with the three Squat lists that already exist and have hours and hours of labor poured into them?  You seem to dismiss outright all the work that went into the Demiurg list by ePilgrim, Thurgrimm's list by Jaldon, and the French version.

In addition, we have an entire project going on where we are going to do our best to mesh the old history of the Squats (precisely what you are suggesting researching we have already done) and combining it with the existing 40K universe - not an easy task because of all the inconsistencies and rewritings and such.  In other words, why reinvent the wheel when you can be part of the project that is going on now?  You might not get your way, but on a project of this size nobody fully gets their way.

What you've described is an adversarial role where they have their list ideas, you have your list ideas, and then 'We let the people decide what is right!'      We could do things like that, but why when we can work together?  The only thing to be lost is some pride in saying this is MY list.  Not a big price for a good final product IMO.

If you are really interested in making the Squat project come together, email me at moscovian@hotmail.com and I'll include you on what we've done and where we are planning on going.  See if you like what has been done.  Let me know what kind of models you have, how often you can playtest the armies, and what particular talents you can bring to the table (painting, modelling, drawing/painting, scenario building, researching, editing, writing, or just relentless effort with lots of time on your hands). From there we can move things forward.

Or you could just do something on your own.  We're looking at having this project last at least a year before it is completed so you have plenty of time to do your own thing.

Tell me where I am being dismissive...




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Well ... maybe it's just me ... But I was thinking E/W Khazari when you say Demis ... :))  So I see them allied with the Squats. As I said before ... but having them as Tau allies has some merit too, IMO ... :cool:  I guess I'm from the KISS school of thought. And having them as Squat and/or Tau allies seems like a good idea without reinventing the wheel.  But as always DWWFY ... 8v)

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Mosc: While I understand that is the direction you are going in (squts and demiurg being related races), some of us prefer to consider them separate and distinct. Certainly there is no official details saying they are in any way related (of course there's very little official detail on the demiurg at all).

For me, the Squats are the race with the hearthguard, trikers, land trains etc, whereas the demiurg are a completely different race, with completely different units.

While you are of course free to continue on your path, please don't try to shoot down those who wish to go in another direction.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Hey Guyz .... It's all good ! :agree:  Now pass the popcorn & Koolaid !  :;): :vD 8v)

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 5:18 pm 
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IIRC it was once stated that the Demiurg were not related to the Squats, they were meant to be a totally new exploration of the Dwarf Archetype. I think either Gav Thorpe said that in an essay about the Squats five or so years ago. That's only secondary canon though as it's not in a rulebook/white dwarf/whatever.

Not that it really matters as the Demiurg were never really fleshed out so in the primary canon there is probably wiggle room.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:33 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 28 May 2009, 11:48 )

Mosc: While I understand that is the direction you are going in (squts and demiurg being related races), some of us prefer to consider them separate and distinct. Certainly there is no official details saying they are in any way related (of course there's very little official detail on the demiurg at all).

For me, the Squats are the race with the hearthguard, trikers, land trains etc, whereas the demiurg are a completely different race, with completely different units.

While you are of course free to continue on your path, please don't try to shoot down those who wish to go in another direction.

I'd like to know where I am shooting people's ideas down?  Quote me, please.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:43 pm 
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I was referring to the general tone of your "rant". Whether intended or not, it came across as "This is what we're doing, and if you don't like it you can sod off, 'cos Jervis said it's OK."

I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it came across as is you felt you had some stamp of officiality, and therefore everyone else's ideas on the matter were wrong.



Note that I left somewhat of a typo in my last post; where I said "please don't try to shoot down those who wish to go in another direction", I meant to say "please try not to shoot down those who wish to go in another direction". I wasn't suggesting you had done that, just that it seemed you could be heading in that direction.




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:59 pm 
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I edited my above comment to Frogbear with a quote from the original thread where he brought up his intentions.  Please, read it and you will see that not only have I not been dismissive but ENCOURAGED him to do his own thing.

My 'rant' is in response to the comments made above it and comments I knew would come.  Comments from people who had no idea what we had done or intended to do, as well as those who I knew would have no intention of actually looking at the existing work on the Squat/Demiurg and simply comment because they can.  

I was referring to the general tone of your "rant". Whether intended or not, it came across as "This is what we're doing, and if you don't like it you can sod off, 'cos Jervis said it's OK."

I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it came across as is you felt you had some stamp of officiality, and therefore everyone else's ideas on the matter were wrong.


Well the first part is partly correct.  We are doing this project.   Some people won't like it.  Oh well.  I can't do anything about that.  The stamp of officiality that you speak of is about as good as it will get.  That doesn't invalidate other people's ideas.  But I have every right to defend what we are doing.

This comment by you, for instance...
For the demiurg it's basically making it all up from scratch or copying squats and calling them demiurg (which seems to be what the current list is).  Has nothing to do with the poll which is about playtesting.  It is a comment about the legitimacy of the list even existing.

Or E&C's comments...
Squats.  Anything else and you're just making it all up yourself.
Once again targeting the legitimacy of the Demiurg work.

Now people are more than welcome to post their own opinions and not everyone will like what we do.  But the same applies for me.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 28 May 2009, 18:59 )

This comment by you, for instance...
For the demiurg it's basically making it all up from scratch or copying squats and calling them demiurg (which seems to be what the current list is).
 Has nothing to do with the poll which is about playtesting.  It is a comment about the legitimacy of the list even existing.

The poll is on which list to focus on. I said focus on the squats because we have more background to work with. My comments on the demiurg are completely true, are they not? Does the current list not use units from the squat background labelled as demiurg?

I have no problems with the demiurg list existing, I'd just prefer development to focus on the squat list at the moment. That's precisely what the poll is asking.




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:47 pm 
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Once again targeting the legitimacy of the Demiurg work.


Well, you are just making it up yourself.

There's no background, no stories, no army list, etc.

It's not like the Dark Eldar where you were limited for the most part to interpreting how to represent them and only adding a couple of new units, you are 'just' making up your own army that happens to be Space Dwarfish.




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Holy cow, guys.  You're makin' me a headache.  :sigh:

I think both sides of this are of one mind - if you want to do your own list or project, do it.  

The rest is just a big misunderstanding based on the vagaries of internet communication where Mosc's post sounded harsher than he intended.


As far as the NetEA project (and it is also a fan project), we gave epilgrim and Jaldon the greenlight as army champions because they have been working on the lists for a while, put a great deal of effort into reconciling them, and by most accounts were doing quite a good job of creating playable, fun lists.  If you want to participate with Jaldon and epilgrim, do it.  I'm sure they will welcome the additional input and I'm equally sure they will take into account this poll as they make decisions on how to move forward - not the determining factor, but taken into account.  In the end they are the arbiters for the NetEA Squat/Demiurg list, but only for that list.

As far as Mosc's overarching grand publication crusade, that's his baby.  He shelled out a lot of cash and a lot of effort to get set up to do his thing.  The prize for that is he gets to make the call.  As with the others, he doesn't just run off and do things without considering what people are interested in.  He has a long track record of accepting suggestions.  However, he's made the call to work with Jaldon and epilgrim and their project using their particular philosophy.  Mosc informing people of that decision does not constitute him saying "we're doing something else so you can't do that."  It's just a clear explanation of where he and the other project participants stand so others can decide whether or not they want to be involved.

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