Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 14  Next

Comments on v5.0

 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Jackwraith @ 20 Feb. 2009, 04:51 )

I have a hard time understanding where people are getting this idea that the Tau method of combat is exclusively infantry-centered.

That's not the "idea" that people are getting at; the "idea" is that the current list is seen as "unfocused", since it could be an all infantry army, or an all battlesuit army, or an all tank army... while other races/armies tend to use variant lists to show alternate focus, the Tau list "does it all".

Both the "flavour" of the list is diffused, and the playtesting is diffused with an unfocused list; how do you playtest the balance of the list if one group of testers just plays with "all tank" armies, while another group plays "combined arms"... both are valid army types with the current list, but could provide wildly varying results.

It's not that Tau have an "exclusive" way of fighting, it's just that each army list should have a "focus".

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:36 am
Posts: 207
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 20 Feb. 2009, 01:10 )

And just notieced some odd thing: Broadside formations arebigger then Crisis formations. Why?

The Broadsides are one suit per base, while a Crisis unit represents 2-3 suits.  So, there are more total suits in the smaller Crisis formation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:36 am
Posts: 207
Chroma has it right.  The Tau would use all Mech forces, just not necessarily all the time.  I think the AMHC is a great idea, but should be in a Mech focused list, not the standard list.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
The AMHC is fine as a formation, it just shouldn't be a core formation. The core of a non-varient Tau list should be fire warriors and crisis suits.

Seriously, I think the creation of a seperate armoured varient list would solve so many problems, and allow many of the section 6 units to find a home without disturbing this list.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:31 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (Hena @ 20 Feb. 2009, 14:03 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 20 Feb. 2009, 08:16 )

Quote: (Jackwraith @ 20 Feb. 2009, 04:51 )

I have a hard time understanding where people are getting this idea that the Tau method of combat is exclusively infantry-centered.

That's not the "idea" that people are getting at; the "idea" is that the current list is seen as "unfocused", since it could be an all infantry army, or an all battlesuit army, or an all tank army... while other races/armies tend to use variant lists to show alternate focus, the Tau list "does it all".

That's just not correct. Only one stuck with infantry armies are Eldar. Everyone else can do non infantry army. Only major difference is that Tau can get SC on vehicle, which  most (well Marines can and Orks can have it in WE) cannot.

Totally agree with Hena here.

There really is no argument about it either. Just about any race can do the same thing that Tau can here (Pred's, Leman's, Gun Wagonz etc are ALL core Formation units). Move on, find something else to gripe about. This isn't an issue.




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Onyx: The idea to create a seperate Armoured list centered around the AMHC will allow the resurrection of many units from the section 6 graveyard. Given that you have said that many of your opinions have been influenced by the models you have and would like to use, surely you would welcome a solution which allowed many of them to come out of retirement?

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:14 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire
I'd like to thank all those working on this armylist and say that I agree with everything that Dobbsy has said.

Can we reduce the size of the Recon Group to 5 so that it matches the size of the basic forge world pack?

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:33 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (zombocom @ 20 Feb. 2009, 14:35 )

Onyx: The idea to create a seperate Armoured list centered around the AMHC will allow the resurrection of many units from the section 6 graveyard. Given that you have said that many of your opinions have been influenced by the models you have and would like to use, surely you would welcome a solution which allowed many of them to come out of retirement?

Where is this armoured list? It doesn't exist escept in a few hopeful minds.

Until there is something on paper, the AMHC will be a core formation for us (as it should be).

Can we reduce the size of the Recon Group to 5 so that it matches the size of the basic forge world pack?

The actual size of the FW Recon group is larger than that advertised on their website (by 1 each of the Piranha and Tetra from memory). That, along with FW's inability to guarantee continuity of the other Tau packs (see Broadsides) means it's pointless to try and match their pack sizes.
No need to make it any smaller. Also, with the added importance of this type of formation (GM/ML combo) there should be no need to make them easier to break/destroy.




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 20 Feb. 2009, 01:51 )

Markerlight changes - This may all be unfounded but it does spring immediately to mind:
I only have one concern about this and it will only pan out once I get some games in, however, if your opponent can take out all of your ML units (and it's a well-known practice that most opponents will kill your important units first - given the fragility of Tau units and the fact they will have to be in the enemy's face to work, this is pretty easy) what do you do with your units that are largely GM carriers? You essentially gut those formations.... Does this design concept have a balance for this? e.g If I take a Pirahna formation, a Scorpionfish and 2 Pathfinder formations and you kill all the PFs then the Pirahnas/SF are pretty much useless. They're there for the GM attacks not the secondary attacks so will be relegated to just running around the table and popping off 1 BM here or there.

I applaud your push for synergy but I'm worried about this. Opponents will go out of their way to kill all your ML units. Once they do your army will be neutered - OK, I hear people saying "that's what we want", but I'm not sure this is entirely fair to Tau players. There's only so many points I can put into ML units and given the cost of most, if I have to throw in so many ML units to be able to use my shooty units then it's counterproductive to my list as I'll have to take more ML units than shooters....

IMHO this dependency on ML is a welcome built-in weakness to the Tau forces, but I do understand the point being made. I have a feeling that the answer will lie in both army make-up and tactics employed to preserve the weaker ML equiped formations, or only to employ them in a FO role where the greater Tau firepower is required etc; both of which will have an effect on the way the army plays.

Now whether that matches up to people's expectations is another story, but given the potential impact to the list, this is the first area that should be tested to prove the point either way. Given the idea has been around for a while, has anyone actually fought using the revised ML / GM rule, and if so, what happened??

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:44 am
Posts: 553
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Quote: (Onyx @ 20 Feb. 2009, 09:31 )

Quote: (Hena @ 20 Feb. 2009, 14:03 )

That's just not correct. Only one stuck with infantry armies are Eldar. Everyone else can do non infantry army. Only major difference is that Tau can get SC on vehicle, which  most (well Marines can and Orks can have it in WE) cannot.

Totally agree with Hena here.

There really is no argument about it either. Just about any race can do the same thing that Tau can here (Pred's, Leman's, Gun Wagonz etc are ALL core Formation units). Move on, find something else to gripe about. This isn't an issue.

How many of those all vehicle armies are all-skimmer?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:41 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Quote: (Jackwraith @ 20 Feb. 2009, 04:51 )

One typo: I'm assuming that Ion Cannon Tiger Sharks cost the same as AX-1-0 Tiger Sharks (350) and not the same as Barracudas (175).

No Jackwraith, there was a lengthy debate on the air caste units and formations which came up different costs for the Tigershark (275 for two) and the rarer but more powerfull AX-0-1-0 (350 for two)

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:49 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
The few games (wish it was more  :sigh: ) I've been able to get in since the GM/ML dependancy was suggested have been all about direct fire armies for me.

Why waste a third of your activations on Tetras, Pathfinders etc when I can just concentrate on Railguns and other, less complicated weapon systems?

The only reason to use GM's at the moment is if you want to be fluffy.
Just max out on Crisis suits, Broadsides and Hammerheads (protected by a Kroot shield) and support these with AX-1-0, Morays or Mantas to deal with the heavy stuff.


How many of those all vehicle armies are all-skimmer?

So what?
How many of them have ATSKNF?
How many of them have Mob Rule or Power of the Waaagh?
How many of them have RA?

A Mechanised FW formation (ie with Devilfish) is still a Skimmer formation meaning an all Skimmer army.
Like I said, nothing to see here...




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Comments on v5.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262
To help me with the peer review I did a quick solo game with all skimmer tau v marines.

Batrep can be seen here


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 14  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net