Thanks for the comments Neal. I have to admit that my own experiences with EA are limited so you could be right in that this army may not mix things up as much as a Saim-Hann list could (or a garrisoning Alaitoc Ranger force.)

When creating it I was really more concerned with background and "getting things right" from that perspective and not just game play.

Having said that, I'm hoping that people will find that there are more subtle differences in using this list as opposed to the other Eldar armies available.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

Fair enough.

In case it was lost in my ramblings, I do really like the Host restrictions.  Guardians and all-DA seem like flavorful core choices for a "basic" craftworld.  I think you could even loosen it to "The army may not contain more Dire Avenger Hosts than Guardian Hosts" to make it a 1:1 ratio instead of 2:1.

Something to consider, imho, would be to have a 4-unit "strike force" aspect troupe instead of a more free-form 6-unit.  I know the prevailing opinion is that aspect troupes should be 6 units for most craftworlds and 4 units for depleted craftworlds, but 4-unit formations are more flexible and (to my mind, at least) make more sense in a strike team role.  You could even restrict the troupe to just one kind of aspect per troupe.  That would give you a "Guardian/DA Horde" as a core, with a fairly large component of pinpoint Aspect support for special assaults and high priority missions like grabbing objectives.  AFAIK, none of the existing Eldar lists really offer such a force org.

Another option might be buffing the Guardians with attached DAs, either as additional units or as replacements for Guardians.  That might create something similar to a Black Guardian "elite" formation feel to it, but I think if you worked the options correctly it could provide more of a heavy infantry feel.

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Neal

That's something to keep in mind. Especially if more people complain that the list feels too restrictive (assuming of course anyone tries it!)

Something to consider, imho, would be to have a 4-unit "strike force" aspect troupe instead of a more free-form 6-unit.  I know the prevailing opinion is that aspect troupes should be 6 units for most craftworlds and 4 units for depleted craftworlds, but 4-unit formations are more flexible and (to my mind, at least) make more sense in a strike team role.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I have been thinking of including a "Storm Guardian" Host (possibly Troupe) to the list. It wouldn't have access to heavy or support weapons.

Any suggestions as to what the CC and FF values should be?

Could it be as simple as flipping the normal Guardians CC6+ and FF4+ to CC4+ and FF6+?

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I don't think storm guardians should be CC 4+. They should maybe be FF 5+ CC 5+. I do not know if they'd be worth as much as defenders, though.

If you're going towards a second guardian formation, why not look at breaking up the choices available to the warhost. There are several ways to divide things up:

Defender
guardians, heavy weapon platforms, and support weapon platforms; transport options if support weapon platforms not taken
[maybe 7 guardians plus 1 farseer; exchange up to 3 guardians for HWPs; add 3 SWPs for X pts OR 4 wave Serpents for Y pts]

Storm
guardians, wraithguard, wraithlords; transport options if wraithlords not taken
[maybe 5 guardians plus 1 farseer; add 3 wraithguard for X pts; add 3 wraithlords for Y pts OR 6 wave Serpents for Z pts]

Expeditionary (or some other, better name)
guardians, rangers, war walkers; no transport options, but allowed to garrison
[maybe 5 guardians, 3 rangers, plus 1 farseer; add 3 war walkers for Y pts; special rule stating this formation may garrison]

Just a late night thought.

I like the sound of the 'expeditionary' force. They would be useful if allowed to garrison.

While the Storm Guardians might have a place in a "generic" Craftworld, I don't think the "Expeditionary" formation would.

That definitely seems like something that would be found in a specialist list.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I was really just stretching to come up with more than two choices.

So, if I understand correctly, the 'thing' that this list allows you to do, that you cannot do with any of the opther craftworld lists, is have both 8-strong and 6-strong DA formations. Thats it, right?

I dunno, that seems rather silly.

I understand the motivation behind wanting a plain vanilla list, but when you can duplicate every combination in said vanilla list using one of the other 'flavored' lists, the vanilla list it's actually necessary, is it?

BUT, of course, that logic doesn't apply to this list, since you can take more Dire Avengers than any of the other lists.

ANYWAY, let me try again...

Storm (possibility 1 - heavy assault varient)
guardians, wraithguard, wraithlords; transport options if wraithlords not taken
[maybe 5 guardians plus 1 farseer; add 3 wraithguard for X pts; add 3 wraithlords for Y pts OR 6 wave Serpents for Z pts]

Storm (possibility 2 - fast attack varient)
guardians, jetbikes, vypers; transport manditory
[maybe 5 guardians, 1 farseer, and 3 Wave Serpents; add 3 Jetbikes for X pts; add 3 Vypers for Y pts]

Of course, both of those choices are equivalent to what Saim Hann or Ulthwe can do. That why I originally went with guardians+rangers+war walkers - no one else can do that.

You're looking at this list in the wrong way. It's not so much what it "allows" you to do as it "does not" allow you to do.

If you're looking for advantages this list isn't for you.

The "thing" of this list is that it limits the number of Aspect Warriors and puts emphasis back onto guardians.

I've been heavily considering reducing the number of Aspect Warriors in Troupes from 6 to 4, depending on how the Storm Guardian Host turns out.

Stat wise for the Stormies I don't want to step on the toes of any Aspect Warriors. I want to keep them cheap, but I would like to make them a viable option as a strike force if loaded up into Wave Serpents.

And I agree with Chroma. I don't want an expeditionary force in this army. I really want a "Eye of Terror Black Guardian Webway Taker" feel to them.

Oh and this force can take a Vampire Hunter, only Saim-Hann can do that. Not a big deal on it's own, but still a little difference.

If I could figure out a fluff justification for using the Void Spinner I'd allow that too!  

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I wasn't looking for an advantage, I was just pointing out that, since nearly every combination of formations possible under this list is already able to be played in one of the other lists, there is no need to have this list.

Personally, I think that if you have an Eldar list it needs to have one unique warhost, even if it is supposed to be a base-line for the other lists.

If you want this to be a guardian-heavy list, why not play around more with the allotments. How about moving the Dire Avengers host into the troupes section, then moving the Aspect Warriors troupe into the Titan/Aerospace category (or maybe instead reduce its size to 4-strong)? Create a Storm guardian host, and boom, you have a unique but non-ulthwe guardian list.

I think that the list needs to be differentiated somehow. Otherwise, won't the end result be that people will play basically the same force they've been playing all along, except with a background that makes you feel better?

There is no other army that has a Host of Dire Avengers. Yes you could re-create that in a Biel-Tan list, but you don't have to take any Guardians to get it.

This list forces you to include at least two Guardian Hosts to get the DA Host. In low point games you'll be hard pressed to fit in the Avengers.

I think that the list needs to be differentiated somehow. Otherwise, won't the end result be that people will play basically the same force they've been playing all along, except with a background that makes you feel better?

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I still don't think you get where I'm coming from. Obviously this list will play differently than a typical Biel-tan list, I'm not arguing that.

Certainly, players don't commonly play the Beil-tan list according to the restrictions given in the Iybraesil list, I'm just pointing out that it can be done. In other words, a player can self-impose restrictions on his/herself and come up with a pretty close facsimile of the Iybraesil list using the Biel-tan list.  

Sure, the Aspect Warrior Warhosts would be masquerading as Troupes and have 2 more units, and sure, there's the whole Vampire Hunter that I failed to noticed, but in the end, a person could replicate a typical Iybraesil army using the Biel-tan list, at least close enough for gov't work.

I point this out because such a statement cannot be made with regards to the other varient lists. There are no equivalents to a Wildrider host or a Spirit Warrior host or a Black Guardian host or a Pathfinder troupe. Basically, the 'big 5' lists have both restictions AND options that are unique to each list. This Iybraesil list seems like it just has the restrictions.

All I am arguing for here is that the Iybraesil list needs something to make it unique, more than simply having extra restrictions. Perferrably, this would be something that fits into the background well (what little there is).

I say, steal the Ulthwe Black Guardian host, minus the extra farseer and +1 init. Then, steal the Saim Hann Guardian troupe. That would give more guardian-based options than any other single army allows, and still fit nicely into the fluff and the theme that Guardians are the bulk of the force.

How does this sound:

"Technologically Superior"

The Eldar of Iybraesil constantly search the Crone Worlds for pieces of forgotten Eldar technology. To that end there is no device manufactured by the Eldar that is unavailable to them.

On the battlefield it is common to see the Iybraesil Eldar using machines of war, such as the Vampire Hunter, Void Spinner, and other more exotic weapons thought unique to only a handful of Craftworlds.

"Crone World Arcana"

Millennia of raiding the Crone Worlds have given rise to a certain reverence to the Eldar of ancient days. A cultural shift has begun to take effect as some Eldar abandon the Path to research their long dead kin.

On the battlefield this is most apparent in regard to the Aspect Warriors whose numbers are slowly decreasing over time. This has lead to the largest of the shrines, the Dire Avengers, taking it upon themselves to band together in an attempt to make up for the shortages caused by the so-called "Crone Archaeologists."

Other large shrines still exist, but there is no doubt they are on the decline. while the smaller rare Shrines have begun to die out completely.

To represent this one out of three Hosts taken may be a Dire Avenger Host. Furthermore no more than one Aspect Troupe may be taken per Eldar War Host.

"Call of the Crone"

The Crone Worlds are nightmarish realms inhabited by Daemons and contaminated by the very essence of Chaos itself. Still the lure of forgotten knowledge is powerful and many Eldar risk insanity and worse to procure it.

To that end many Eldar citizens, or more precisely "Crone Archaeologists" seek out training from former combat specialist Aspect Warriors. As sergeants these veteran Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees often lead close assault oriented Guardians into the heart of the Crone Worlds.

On the battlefield the Storm Squads often make up in numbers, if not in skill, for the decline in Aspect Warriors on Iybraesil.

Storm Squads may not use heavy weapons. They have a CC4+ and FF6+

The stats on the Storm Squads need playtesting, but what do you think of these changes?

As far as I know this is the only Eldar list with 3 different Host types.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

Whilst i think that CC 4+ represents storm guardians really well (Taking into account the ubiquitous flamers and melta guns their 40K counterparts are often armed with), you'd have to be insane to want to engage in CC with guardians.

It would need playtesting, but CC4+ is pretty nasty. Only problem is not actually making it into base to base and having to use that 6+FF. That would be the end of them.  

_________________
-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ