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Ain't No Mountain High Enough...

 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:34 am 
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How about allowing Crisis suits to pop-up like Skimmers but move as Infantry? No forced FF in assaults.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:10 am 
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Quote: (Honda @ 20 Jan. 2009, 20:17 )

Ok, a new voice brings up skimmer. That's an interesting idea. What are the upsides/downsides?

@Hena: I hear you   :)

So at the end of it's move the formation can pop-up over terrain to shoot and then hide again:-
- Gets the benefit of hiding from enemy reaction
But
- Requires more words to explain / exclude how it is different from 'Skimmer'
- Leaves the formation still in range at the end of it's move

While this is a fair solution, IMHO it is both of limited benefit and a quite clunky. So I do not think it will work as well as we need.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:44 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 20 Jan. 2009, 18:52 )

Quote: (Honda @ 20 Jan. 2009, 18:33 )

Tau Jump pack units don't get to avoid combat in 40K, they get to avoid getting shot at, while still getting their shot off. An opponent who is intent on bringing the crisis/stealth into hand to hand combat will be able to do that.

Not to keep honking the same horn, but that *really* sounds like "Hit and Run" to me... Double: move in, shoot, move back out.  Engage: jump to clipping firefight range, win, move back.

I have to agree with Chroma on this. 'Hit-and-Run' already exists as a rule that is widely understood and used. It also provides a better fit with what people seem to be describing.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:03 am 
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Are we talking about an exact copy of the Hit and Run rules or an edited version?

If it's an edited (in any way) version then it's not really much different to many of the other ideas floating around.

Of all the suggestions so far I believe zombocoms is the simplest and fairest:
"Jet Packs - Reduce movement by 5cm, allow 10cm move after shooting on advance or double."

This idea allows the Tau commander to get up close and use some of that short-ranged heavy firepower and get back into cover, or out of CC assault range.
No need for interferring with the opponents movement/assault phase.
No ability to jump away from mutiple assaults in one turn.
No huge consolidation moves after an assault.
Something original for the Tau.

It's kind of like a half way Hit and Run without copying all the flexibilty that makes the Hit and Run rules so special for the Eldar.
It will be quicker than using Hit and Run (less options to contemplate) and is obviously simpler in application aswell.


As far as Scout on Sentry Turret formations, I agree that if they are armed formations, they should not have the Scout ability.
We really should not be calling them Sentry Drone Turrets as that will lead to confusion with Drones/Heavy Drones.
I really believe they should only get a 6+ save. They are sitting ducks if placed out in the open and should die easily. I have seen it quite often, when I place the odd Turret out in the open and it gets shot, only to make it's save...Very annoying for the opponent. That said, I would almost always place mine in some form of cover...

So my idea would be-
Sentry Turret
Light Vehicle
Speed - 0cm
Armour 6+
FF - 6+
CC - 6+
Twin Linked Missile Pods  45cm   AP4+/AT5+
Fearless

Sentry Tower
Light Vehicle
Speed - 0cm
Armour 6+
FF -
CC -
Fearless, Markerlight

I like shmitty's suggested formation and points.
"3 Sentry Drone Turrets and 1 Sentry Tower  - 125Points  (that's just a guess) - Counts an an Auxiliary choice."
Maybe the points could be upped a bit. These formations could be very effective for area denial or as speed bumps.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:35 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 21 Jan. 2009, 07:03 )

Of all the suggestions so far I believe zombocoms is the simplest and fairest:
"Jet Packs - Reduce movement by 5cm, allow 10cm move after shooting on advance or double."

That would work for me.

As far as Scout on Sentry Turret formations, I agree that if they are armed formations, they should not have the Scout ability.
We really should not be calling them Sentry Drone Turrets as that will lead to confusion with Drones/Heavy Drones.
I really believe they should only get a 6+ save. They are sitting ducks if placed out in the open and should die easily. I have seen it quite often, when I place the odd Turret out in the open and it gets shot, only to make it's save...Very annoying for the opponent. That said, I would almost always place mine in some form of cover...


Seems reasonable.  I can't imagine they will live too long either way.  What is there armour rating in IA3 anyway?

I like shmitty's suggested formation and points.
"3 Sentry Drone Turrets and 1 Sentry Tower  - 125Points  (that's just a guess) - Counts an an Auxiliary choice."
Maybe the points could be upped a bit. These formations could be very effective for area denial or as speed bumps.

My hope was that the limitation of making them an Auxiliary choice would prevent any spamming.  That way they can be priced on their abilities.  How did you feel about them being an Auxiliary Onyx?  Given the requirement of a FW unit per choice, you won't be able to get out too many of them.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:45 am 
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I'd prefer it to be 1 per Cadre (not just Fire Warriors) as that leaves the option for taking the Hammerhead or Battlesuit Cadre and still qualify for a Sentry Turret group.

IA3 has the Sentry Turrets as 4+ save (?) and the Sensor Tower at 5+.

I just know from experience, that the enemy always has to agonise over shooting at these things or at other targets. It is so frustrating when they actually decide to take out the Sentry Tower, only to have it make it's saves and they've wasted their shots. These things should not survive too long (unless the opponent ignore them) and I've seen 5+ go a long way.




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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:06 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 21 Jan. 2009, 07:45 )

I'd prefer it to be 1 per Cadre (not just Fire Warriors) as that leaves the option for taking the Hammerhead or Battlesuit Cadre and still qualify for a Sentry Turret group.

I can understand that.  The goal here was simplification and I figured that making them Auxiliary gave a restriction without having to add anything new in the way of unit selection.  It seems cleaner.

IA3 has the Sentry Turrets as 4+ save (?) and the Sensor Tower at 5+.


I guess I didn't specify, but I was curious what their 40k armour is.  Get an idea of the intent of their original toughness.

I just know from experience, that the enemy always has to agonise over shooting at these things or at other targets. It is so frustrating when they actually decide to take out the Sentry Tower, only to have it make it's saves and they've wasted their shots. These things should not survive too long (unless the opponent ignore them) and I've seen 5+ go a long way.

Hmm....with them having an attack and activation now, they will be a far better target and much less of a wasted shot.  I like them being more of a normal unit, I think it might take some of the weirdness away for opponents too.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:21 am 
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Quote: (shmitty @ 21 Jan. 2009, 15:06 )

I can understand that.  The goal here was simplification and I figured that making them Auxiliary gave a restriction without having to add anything new in the way of unit selection.  It seems cleaner.

I think the Auxiliary rule should be changed to 1 per Cadre aswell (not just Fire Warriors). I've read IA3 and the 40K Tau Codex and I cannot find anything that states that Fire Warriors must be present in all armies at all times.

I guess I didn't specify, but I was curious what their 40k armour is.  Get an idea of the intent of their original toughness.

Sentry Turrets have an armour value of 12 all round. Sensor Towers have 10 all round.
*I have no idea about the relation of 40K stats to Epic. I haven't played 40K since it was called Rogue Trader...


Hmm....with them having an attack and activation now, they will be a far better target and much less of a wasted shot.  I like them being more of a normal unit, I think it might take some of the weirdness away for opponents too.
Agreed. It will be the decision of Kill Turrets/Tower or kill something more valuable that will make these units intersting.
Once the enemy decides to attack them though, I think they should disapear quickly.

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:12 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 21 Jan. 2009, 08:21 )

Sentry Turrets have an armour value of 12 all round. Sensor Towers have 10 all round.
*I have no idea about the relation of 40K stats to Epic. I haven't played 40K since it was called Rogue Trader...

10 means that bolter fire can damage, but not destroy it. 12 means immune to bolter and heavy bolter fire.

However, the Turrets are open-topped after firing, which should mean more vulnerability, therefore giving them LV status (with better armour) seems good.

/Fredmans

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:25 am 
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Looks like:
Sentry Turret: Armoured Vehicle, Armour 6+
Sensor Tower: Light Vehicle, Armour 6+

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:47 am 
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Ok, I see where you are going, and also the difference in perspectives. I guess it depends on people's view of how big these things are and their offensive capability (and IIRC it is this element of the debate that has made it go round in circles for some time).

I was thinking of something that was little more than a sensor on top of a stick in the ground (just to give you a mental image you understand). What you are describing sounds much larger and more sophisticated, and more 'Drone' like.

Auxilliary formation seems a good call, and as to resiliance, we can juggle the use of unit type and armour value to give a reasonable vulnerability though LV and 5+ seems cool. However I would still recommend they are not Fearless because IMHO that will make them far too resiliant.

So I guess this debate all boils down to perspectives of the kind of role they should perform:-
  • If they are only there to ML nearby enemy formations, they should have no formal weapons at all and therefore no ZoC (And no activation or rally).
  • Giving them some CC and FF capacity turns them into an area denial weapon that has ZoC, and is a more serious problem for the enemy. (But still no activation or rally)
  • Giving these things any form of long range shooting capability automatically turns them into a 'normal' formation, because they need to activate to use the weapon. I would argue that at this point there is little distinction between the turret and a Gun Drone and thus good reason to combine the units.

For what its worth, from a 'non-Tau' perspective I would prefer they were a very cheap, unarmed 'sensor-on-a-stick' (though I do understand the potential issues on game mechanics). IMHO their inoffensive nature actually makes the choice whether to engage or ignore them much harder, while it also provides the best distinction between this unit and the larger 'Drones'.




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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 21 Jan. 2009, 07:03 )

Are we talking about an exact copy of the Hit and Run rules or an edited version?

If it's an edited (in any way) version then it's not really much different to many of the other ideas floating around.

Of all the suggestions so far I believe zombocoms is the simplest and fairest:
"Jet Packs - Reduce movement by 5cm, allow 10cm move after shooting on advance or double."

I was indeed thinking of the unedited Eldar hit-and-run rule both for clarity and effect.

When shooting, the alternative suggestion allows the unit to more slightly further (20cm) before shooting and retiring 10cm, so ending slightly further forward than the original position. The difference between this and the Eldar H&R seems marginal for the potential confusion the new rule may bring.

The main question is whether Tau Jump Pack troops should be allowed to consolidate a full move after combat, and that seems reasonable to me as it would still fall in line with the tactics of getting back out of trouble.

Zombo, have you tried the full H&R in your games? Also does this cause a conflict with the normal Jump pack definition? (IMO 'No', but just asking).

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:13 pm 
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As a side note, I consider the designation "Hit and Run" a misnomer: As any Eldar player knows, you don´t "run" after hitting, but get yourself into a position to support the next assault...

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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 21 Jan. 2009, 11:03 )

Zombo, have you tried the full H&R in your games? Also does this cause a conflict with the normal Jump pack definition? (IMO 'No', but just asking).

Jstr and I have tried both H&R and a 10cm move after shooting on single and advance, and vastly preferred the second one.

The main issue with hit and run is that it causes major rules problems with mixed formations that don't all have hit and run, say FW with drones. You end up with units shooting at different points in the activation, which is obviously impossible, but there's no easy way around it. The hit and run rule assumes the whole formation (nay the whole army) has the rule, and so would need rewriting anyway. A 10cm move after shooting works for mixed formations or fully jetpack formations, and just "feels" better.

Likeiwse, the flexability of hit and run doesn't really represent how Tau jetpacks are supposed to work. They should give you just enough movement to get away from the enemy, not the option of shooting then doubling 50cm away. Also, the extra movement when winning an assault is entirely unneccesary for jetpacks.




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 Post subject: Ain't No Mountain High Enough...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:44 pm 
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There are other cases in the game were units with mixed abilities go together in formations and the rules are if all the units in a formation don't have the special rule/ability it can't be used (e.g. mixed guard artillery companies).

The one game we played using the chroma experiment played fine with hit and run, but more tests are required of either solution.


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