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Can you check my work, please?

 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:38 am 
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Hi there.

For my next BoLS post, I want to highlight how effective war engines can be in a close assault. I'm using the example of a Great Gargant taking on a formation of Tactical marines.

Here's what I've written:

Example of a war engine assault
To finish up, let’s play out an example of a Tactical detachment of Ultramarines assaulting a Great Gargant to see what war engines can do. Infantry assaulting a war engine may seem silly at the outset, but this kind of assault is an abstraction of the troops attempting to penetrate (by any means) the war engine to kill its crew or sabotage and destroy it from the inside.

The marines player has the initiative. He activates the Tactical detachment (six Tactical stands with three Rhinos) and performs an Engage order. With an Initiative rating of 1+, the marines pass their activation test automatically and the player moves his troops up to 15cm toward the Great Gargant. The front three stands, including the Captain character stand, manage to get into base-to-base contact so that the Captain gets an additional macro weapon attack.

The Ork Great Gargant has 9 powerfields (thanks to an earlier roll of 3 for the number of powerfields) and a DC of 12. It has reinforced armour and is Fearless.

Because he’s a nice bloke, the Ork player allows the marines player to resolve his attacks first (except for units with the First Strike special rule, the order in which you resolve attacks is not important--all units in the assault will get their attacks). The Tactical detachment can roll six dice needing 4 or better for the Tactical stands and three dice needing 6s for the Rhinos. The marines player rolls 1, 3, 6 for the close combating marines, 3, 5 and 6 for the firefighting marines, and 3, 4 for the Rhinos. He also rolls a 4 for the Captain’s extra macro weapon attack: a total of 1 close combat hits (bypasses the powerfields), 1 close combat macro weapon hit, and 4 firefight hits.

The Ork player removes four of his powerfields for the (five of those left, so not a huge loss), and then starts attempting to save the close combat hits. For the normal close combat hit, he rolls a 2. Failed. But the armour is reinforced, so he gets another try. He rolls a 5. Saved. Next, he rolls for the macro weapon hit, which negates his reinforced armour so there will be no re-roll if he fails. He rolls a 3. Failed--the Great Gargant has taken a hit. It is now at 11 DC and must take a critical hit roll. The marines player rolls for the critical hit and scores a 5. Close…but no cigar.

Now it’s the Ork player’s turn. He rolls 12 dice needing 3 or better to hit (both the close combat and firefight values are 3+, so no distinction is necessary), plus 1 die for the Lifta-Droppa’s extra macro weapon attack. For the 12 normal hits, he rolls 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6: a total of eight hits. For the macro weapon, he rolls a 3, so that’s one marine who won’t make it home right there.

The marines player rolls for his six Tactical marines saves and scores 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That’s three more marine stands destroyed for a total of four marines casualties (which, because we take casualties from the front, includes the brave--but ultimately foolish--Captain). He then rolls two dice for the Rhino saves and scores a 3 and a 4, so two Rhinos are destroyed. Six casualties in total.

In the assault resolution, the marines roll a 4 while the Ork player rolls a 3. The assault resolution tally looks like this, then:

Marines -- 4 (the roll) + 1 (casualty inflicted--the 1 DC lost by the Gargant)
Orks -- 3 (the roll) + 6 (casualties inflicted)

The Ork player has won by four, so the Tactical marines formation is broken and must withdraw. In addition, thanks to the assault resolution score difference of four, four additional hits are scored on the now-broken marines formation. For other armies, this would mean four additional casualties, but for marines with the They Shall Know No Fear special rule, this number is halved (and rounded down if appropriate), so just two additional casualties are suffered. These casualties must be taken from the front, and so the last remaining marines stands in the formation are lost. Just one Rhino remains.

So, at the end of the assault, the Gargant has lost four powerfields and a single DC, while the marines Tactical formation now consists of a sole, broken, marines-smeared Rhino...

I reckon we can chalk that one up as a win for the Orks.


Spot any mistakes or other problems? Thanks in advance for your help and feedback.   :))

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:46 am 
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Actually the marines are doing worse than the above.

The ork player with a DC of 12 more than doubles the marines in number so he actually has +2 to the combat resolution I believe...

I daresay that Rhino did not make it out.

Then there is the whole thing about blast markers.   :whistle:


That marine captain, although brave, obviously carried a defective geneseed. I am sure Marneus Calgar would want to be alerted immediately to assist in the removal of this at the soonest instance.     :p

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:56 am 
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Oops. I knew I'd forgotten something important (or several things, as it turns out).  :whistle:

Thanks!   :))

Anyone else? Anything more I've gotten wrong?


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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:27 am 
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I thought there was an amendement that marines never suffer for double outnumber.


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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:25 am 
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When I first read it, it seemed to me as if the captain appeared from thin air. Perhaps you should call it a "...Tactical detachment of Ultramarines with a Captain upgrade assaulting..."?

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:28 am 
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Yep. Good call. Will amend.  :agree:


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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:51 am 
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A better example might be to toss a few more points at the gargant? How about that tactical detachment's captain calling some assualt marines into the breach with him (combined assualt) and some dev's supporting?

One thing that strikes me is that people might say something along the lines of "sure great geargants are good but i read the rules and a gargant is 850pts and tacticals only 300..." or something. I'm sure the gargant would still come out on tops!

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:50 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Jan. 2009, 11:08 )

1. You can't say that there is no distinction between FF and and CC attacks on Gargant. WEs CC attacks cannot hit units outside base-to-base and FF attacks cannot hit unit in base-to-base.

Really? Even with the Errata? So Terminators' CC attacks can kill units in non-BTB but Gargant's can't?


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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:26 am 
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Quote: (Man of kent @ 14 Jan. 2009, 08:51 )

A better example might be to toss a few more points at the gargant? How about that tactical detachment's captain calling some assualt marines into the breach with him (combined assualt) and some dev's supporting?

One thing that strikes me is that people might say something along the lines of "sure great geargants are good but i read the rules and a gargant is 850pts and tacticals only 300..." or something. I'm sure the gargant would still come out on tops!


Yeah, assaults are just one way that epic stands out from other games.

Preparation for assault, using artillery, aircraft or nearby formations to spray the target and soften it up with blast markers. Making sure there are plenty of guys that are in position to provide support fire. Then, when all is prepared going in for the kill. A good and well executed assault takes careful preparation and planning and is all the more satisfying for it.

2 Terminator Formations with a captain and chaplain, teleporting in and doing a combined assault on a great gargant that has been prepped up with a few BMs. Possibly it has lost most of it's power fields previously so supporting fire from a nearby devestator detachment might actually do something. The marines might even win the assault and do serious damage.

exciting or what?




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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:12 pm 
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Not sure if anyone caught it, but the Marine hack downs are halved due to TSKNF.

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Hena is correct about WE in assaults. Unlike normal units where all CC and FF hits are usually pooled together and then allocated Front-to-back, the WE must slit up its dice into FF and CC attacks and allocate any hits to the correct targets. In this example however, I would agree that it is necessary to separate out CC attacks (that get under the shields) from all FF attacks (which are saved on the shields).

Also, I agree with MoK that adding further fomations in both improves the odds and illustrates combined assaults and some other elements of this scenario. Devastators and Assault Marines with a Chaplain to gain "inspiring" would be ideal. Also, I would suggest a small paragraph to outline the particular engagement as well, perhaps something like :-
"Eying up the nearby Great Gargant that towered over the wreckage strewn battlefield, Captain Graunt knew that he was going to need help on this assault. Though the dust and smoke he could see his Tactical command and the nearby 28th Assault marines waiting for his orders. "We go after the 51st Devestators have chipped in". . .

The marine player declares that the nearby Devastators will double to into support range. Needing a +1, they activate automatically, mount up into their Rhinos and move 60 cms before dismounting 15 cms away from the Great Gargant. Throwing eight dice, they need +7 to hit (because they have doubled). Two '6's are scored, so these are rolled again each hitting on a 4+; a '5' is thrown scoring a hit which is saved by the power shields, so only a single BM is placed on the Great Gargant for being shot at but this is enough. However, the great Gargant still has 8 shields left.

Now the Tactical commander (a captain) orders a combined assault needing 2+ to activate. He scores a 4, and because the Assault marines formation are within 5cms of his Tacticals they are also ordered to engage, moving into base-base with the Great Gargant together with five stands of Tacticals.
Etc"

Then I would spell out the phases of the assault; so

    1. Marine attacks
    a) Tacticals and Assault marines in CC all dice and the Great Gargant saves for any normal and MW hits, noting any criticals.
    b) Any Marines in FF dice and the GG Power shields save the hits.

    2. Great Gargant attacks
    a) The Great Gargant nominates and dices for CC attacks and any hits are allocated and resolved front-to back to marines in B-B with the GG. Then the MW hit is allocated and resolved on the nearest marine.
    b) The Great Gargant nominates and dices for FF attacks and any hits are allocated front-to back to marines not in B-B with the GG

    3. Support
    If both sides survive, any nearby formations provide support. In this case the Devastators and their Rhinos dice, any hits being saved on the GG shields.

    4. Assault resolution
    Now the assault is resolved, with the GG getting +1 for outnumbering, while the Marines get +2 for BMs and +1 for inspiring.

With average dice rolls (which almost never happen!), the GG should score ~'8' hits and ~'5' kills allocated accross 13 marine stands, while the marines score ~'4' hits and ~'2' kills (one of which might go critical just for fun).

This leaves the marines around -1 on the dice-off, praying to the dice gods for the correct response to the question "Do you feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya??"

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 Post subject: Can you check my work, please?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:43 am 
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REVISED TEXT: The changes won't make everyone happy, of course, but how does this read now? Any more inaccuracies?

Example of a war engine assault
To finish up, let’s play out an example of several Ultramarines formations assaulting a Great Gargant to see what war engines can do.

Infantry assaulting a war engine may seem silly at the outset, but this kind of assault is an abstraction of the troops attempting to penetrate (by any means) the war engine to kill its crew or sabotage and destroy it from the inside.

For this example, picture that, in a prior turn, the marines player has cleverly positioned two Tactical detachments within 5cm of each other so that the first Captain-led Tactical formation can drag the second Chaplain-led Tactical formation along with him when his formation performs an Engage order (this is the Commander special rule, which Captains enjoy). Imagine also that, in his prior activation, the marines player positioned a Devastator detachment within 15cm of the Great Gargant in order for it to provide Supporting Fire. Clever indeed, as we’ll see.

The marines launch their combined assault
The marines player has the initiative. He activates the Tactical detachment (six Tactical stands with three Rhinos, led by a Captain) and performs an Engage order. With an Initiative rating of 1+, the marines pass their activation test automatically and the player moves his troops up to 15cm toward the Great Gargant. The front three stands, including the Captain character stand, manage to get into base-to-base contact so that the Captain gets an additional macro weapon attack.

As mentioned, the Captain is able to drag the second Tactical detachment along for the Engage action, and the marines player moves that formation now. None of these units are able to get into base-to-base contact with the war engine, so the Chaplain’s extra macro weapon attack is lost, which is a pity but not a deal-breaker.

The Ork Great Gargant has 9 powerfields (thanks to an earlier roll of 3 for the number of powerfields) and a DC of 12, but is currently carrying two blast markers. It has reinforced armour and is Fearless.

Because he’s a nice bloke, the Ork player allows the marines player to resolve his attacks first (except for units with the First Strike special rule, the order in which you resolve attacks is not important--all units in the assault will get their attacks). The first Tactical detachment can roll six dice needing 4 or better for the Tactical stands and three dice needing 6s for the Rhinos, and the second Tactical detachment can roll the same again. So that’s 12 dice hitting on 4s and six dice hitting on 6s.

Worth noting here that the three marines in base-to-base (close combat) contact bypass the Ork powerfields, and so are rolled separately.

The marines player rolls 1, 3, 6 for the close combating marines (one hit), 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5 and 6 for the firefighting marines (four hits), and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 for the Rhinos (one hit).

He also rolls a 4 for the Captain’s extra macro weapon attack, so that’s a save the Ork player will have to take separately as it will not get the benefit of a reinforced armour re-roll.

So we have a a total of 1 close combat (bypasses the powerfields) macro weapon hit, 1 normal close combat hit, and five normal firefight hits.

The Ork player removes five of his powerfields for the (four of those left, so not a huge loss), and then starts attempting to save the close combat hits. For the normal close combat hit, he rolls a 2. Failed. But the armour is reinforced, so he gets another try. He rolls a 5. Saved. Next, he rolls for the macro weapon hit, which negates his reinforced armour so there will be no re-roll if he fails. He rolls a 3. Failed--the Great Gargant has taken a hit. It is now at 11 DC and must take a critical hit roll. The marines player rolls for the critical hit and scores a 5. Close…but no cigar.

The Ork strikes back
Now it’s the Ork player’s turn. For the Great Gargant, the close combat and firefight values are both 3+, but for war engines the player must allocate before hand which dice will be close combat attacks and which will be firefight attacks. He decides that five will be close combat attacks, so the remaining seven will be firefight attacks.

The Ork player rolls the first five dice needing 3 or better to hit, plus one die for the Lifta-Droppa’s extra macro weapon attack. He rolls 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5: a total of three hits. For the macro weapon, he rolls a 3, so that’s one marine who won’t make it home right there unless the marines player decides to attempt an Invulnerable save with his Captain (that needs a 6, so not good odds).

For simplicity, the players decide to resolve the close combat saves now. The marines player opts to take the macro weapon hit on his Captain, and attempts an Invulnerable save. He scores a 2. Doh! Goodbye Captain Wossname. The marines player then rolls for his Tactical marines’ saves and scores 2, 3 and 4, so two more marine stands are destroyed for a total of three marines casualties, which is all of the remaining units in base-to-base contact. Three casualties in total.

The Ork player now rolls the seven firefight dice and scores 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Four more normal hits the surviving marines must save. In our group, we allocate wounding from the front of the target formation to the back, so the marines player must allocate the four hits to the closest units. In this case, these are the three remaining Tactical marines stands and one Rhino from the first formation.

The marines player rolls three dice for the Tactical marines’ saves and scores a 3, a 4 and a 5, so one more marines stand is destroyed. He then rolls a 5 for the Rhino, so it is saved by its armour.

Supporting fire
Remember the Devastator detachment the marines player had cleverly manoeuvred into position 15cm from the Great Gargant? Now is their time to shine, and they unleash a barrage of heavy weapons fire upon the Ork war engine. Supporting formations use their firefight value, which for Devastators is 3+, so the marines player now rolls four dice (one for each stand in the formation) needing 3s to hit. He rolls 2, 3, 4 and 5, so scores three hits. These are taken upon the Gargant’s powerfields, whittling them down further but doing no actual damage.

Resolving the assault
So the Great Gargant has taken one casualty--the 1 DC lost by the Gargant, lost powerfields don’t count--while the marines have taken four casualties. In the assault resolution, the marines roll 3 and 4 (so they take the 4) while the Ork player rolls a 1 and a 6 (and takes the 6). The assault resolution tally looks like this, then:

Marines -- 4 (the roll) + 1 (for the casualty inflicted) + 1 (for the inspiring Chaplain) + 1 (more units than the Gargant has DC) +1 (no blast markers) + 1 (enemy has more blast markers)
Orks -- 6 (the roll) + 4 (casualties inflicted)

The Ork player has won by one, so the two Tactical marines formations are broken and must withdraw while the Great Gargant takes a single blast marker for losing 1DC. Also, the assault resolution score difference of one translates to one additional blast marker on the already-broken marines. For other armies, this would mean an additional casualty, but for marines with the They Shall Know No Fear special rule, this number is halved (and rounded down if appropriate), so no additional casualties are suffered.

So, at the end of the assault, the Gargant has lost four powerfields and a single DC, while the marines player’s Tactical formations are broken and forced out of position, and a Devastator detachment that is now just begging to be assaulted by the Great Gargant. I reckon we can chalk that one up as a win for the Orks.


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