So to save me from spending a lot of time trying to dig out this "Always popped up" deal? Is the difference that, Popped up is still subject to LOF?

Also, I read the Manta thread and I see where there seems to be a general agreement to tone down the firepower, although the discussion was not conclusive on what would be the new values.

Also there seems to be a lot of discussion on the Planetfall without a Space asset. This part always puzzled me. As I understand it to work, the Tau player rolls for activation, if successful, the Manta is then placed anywhere on the table. Then another activation must be taken in order to do anything with the Manta. Is that understanding correct?

So the only difference between how a Manta and a Moray work is that the Manta does not require a Space asset.

Is that everyone else's understanding?

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

The unit is just treated as if it was "Always popped-up", so it uses the skimmer LOS/LOF rules in the Errata 2008.

Also there seems to be a lot of discussion on the Planetfall without a Space asset. This part always puzzled me. As I understand it to work, the Tau player rolls for activation, if successful, the Manta is then placed anywhere on the table. Then another activation must be taken in order to do anything with the Manta. Is that understanding correct?

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From the LRB, 4.4:


...
You can make a planetfall on the turn the spacecraft
transporting the units enters play. Carry out the planetfall
after carrying out any bombardments and/or pin-point
attacks. Take one of the units with the planetfall ability
and place it anywhere on the table that is within 15cms of
the drop zone co-ordinates recorded at the start of the
game (see 4.3.1). The unit then scatters 2D6cms in a
random direction
...

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So does that mean it's not "Place anywhere I want and Sustain Fire," but rather "Plot a point and hope I can do something usefull?"

On a side note: I think the SkyRay and StingRay should be merged. If the Tau had a dedicated AP-Missile Tank then surely the SkyRay would have this option in the Tau Codex?
However the SkyRay can mark a Infantry unit and fire a volley of Seeker Missiles at them (nowhere inthe 40k rules it sais that SM can only be fired ad vehicles). Thats up to six Strength 8, ArmorPiercing 3 shots. A single missile would be as effective as a downgrades Lascannon in Epic, so no AP value, but a volley of missiles should be as effective as an Autocannon.

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In no way did I say the manta is "just a transport". Primarily a transport is what I said, so much so that it's described repeatedly as a "super-heavy dropship". Strawman arguments are not needed here.

Note that in 40k the Manta and A-X-10 are armed with an identical weapon, yet somehow in Epic the Manta (and Moray) get twice as many shots with it?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I guess the way I always looked at it was the Moray versions broke out the Railcannon and Ion Phalanx of the Manta into two separate chassis. In hindsight, perhaps the Moray should just field half of the Manta firepower and not have any transport.

Re: Always Popped Up - I'm Ok with this as a simplification and clarification approach.

Planetfall - Yes, thank you for memory restart. That was how I now remember playing it. Memory

So the most obvious choice to me for the Free Planetfall is just eliminate it. It's more of a nice to have/characterful addition, but seeing as how we'll probably have enough discussion on the final stats of the Manta/Moray and the attendant costs. Besides, that means we can dump two special rules for one (Support Craft/Free Planetfall for Always Popped Up).

Anyone else in favor of this approach?

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Yeah, note that I only had always-popped up as a rule to be tested in my consensus list, not for certain use.

Consensus is to give it a go and see how it works ingame. It might work, it might not.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

As far as downgrading the firepower of the Manta/Moray the easiest way is to change the Railcannons from 2 separate weapons to one twin-linked system.  The same w/ the Ion cannons, 3 twin-linked as opposed to six separate shots.  Essentially taking away a shot from each of them.

Yep, the railcannon is supposed to be twin linked rather than two shots.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Ok, read the report and the attached thread.

My only comments on the battle were that I think the IG played too conservatively. My experiences against Tau is that you have to take the battle to them and keep them on the back foot, otherwise they get the opportunity to set up serious attack vectors and start ripping apart chunks of your army.

I did like the composition of the IG army, though it seems to be a very fragile combination in the face of long range firepower.

Regarding the "Always Popped Up" rule, it seems workable, but also prone to confusion and it might spur additional measuring that may or may not get annoying ("Am I closer to that or you?")

I will test this as soon as we get the rest of the list sorted out.

I'd also like to follow up on some of my and others earlier comments. There seems to be a strong desire by some to reduce the firepower of the Moray because it is too strong. I don't think that has been clearly demonstrated yet through game play. I am even more cautious about downgrading it if units are now able to hide from the Moray.

The key, which ever path is taken, is to ensure that the Moray is "right sized". By that I mean, it needs to be unique and it needs to be effective or there won't be any reason to take it (see Swordfish). If all the exercise does is reduce it's capabilities to the point where no one thinks it's worth taking, then the effort to correct the unit failed just as strongly as if it were left too strong.

The other thing to take into account when implementing change, is to not change too many variables at one time otherwise you make it extremely difficult to determine whether or not the desired result was accomplished.

So, I would be more in favor of leaving the values as is and then playtesting the "Always Popped Up" rule until a decision can be arrived at. The other possibility is to right size the guns (i.e. half the eventual armament of a Manta) and then play against the current Support Craft rule.

The other thing I am thinking about is removing the FF value. To really model an "aircraft" type vehicle, are FF values appropriate? I'm thinking not. I'd be interested in what others think on that.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Well the Moray already has half the armament of the Manta in a sense.  It either gets the Railcannon OR the Ion Guns, not both.  The Moray should find its niche in between the Manta and the AX-1-0.  Once those two are figured out as the high and low end, it should be easy to get it somewhere in between.

It would be nice to see a cheaper Manta as I think they would see the table far more often and they are a beautiful model.  That can be done while still representing the firepower it is described as having.  A 700 - 750 point Manta should be very doable.

Well the Moray already has half the armament of the Manta in a sense.  It either gets the Railcannon OR the Ion Guns, not both.  The Moray should find its niche in between the Manta and the AX-1-0.  Once those two are figured out as the high and low end, it should be easy to get it somewhere in between.

It would be nice to see a cheaper Manta as I think they would see the table far more often and they are a beautiful model.  That can be done while still representing the firepower it is described as having.  A 700 - 750 point Manta should be very doable.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

A really important thing for any potential playtesters to remember with this Always popped up thing - they MUST use 12 terrain features as described in the Tournament scenario.

Anything else will be a waste of time.

I believe, that with 12 terrain featurs, Always Popped Up will render Support Craft next to useless and a waste of points.
I hope to be PROVEN wrong though for the sake of the list.

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