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Unique - should it be more unique
zap123
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:40 am 
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Triggered by the thread on army advice.  I was wondering if Unique Cards should actually be raised to 1 per 4000 or perhaps even 1 per 5000 points.  Given the "standard" game is around the 4-5K mark, a restrictions of 1 per 3000 points on things like Guild Bikers, Saim-Hann Wind Riders and Rough Rider companies doesn't seem to be much of a restriction at all.

Also, shouldn't the Saim-Hann company be called the Wild Riders?

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Malleus
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:25 am 
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Well, the guildbiker company is not a unique card, and the only thing you get "extra" is -1VP and  breakpoint is combined.. its not cheaper then taking 1 trike squad and 2 bike squads...
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Warhead
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:48 am 
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We had sorted out that Guild Biker Companies should be Unique (You may only take one of the card per 3000 points) on this thread here...
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....0;st=15

You know I didn't like the loss of the Jet Bike Bonanza Wind Rider Company... or any of the other freebees in any of the companies for that matter. I liked the feeling of getting more for my points. Even if the other side were too. It was never the battle winner I always imagined it would be though. It just looked good on paper IMO.

I don't know Zap. The Wild Riders should be the free card you always used to get with a Saim Hann Host. Yes, the way the cards are just now I suppose it does make sense to change them that way but I still preferred the old ways best. I had to get that in there. (Besides it's how I have my vast 50K Eldar War Host painted, Grrr! :evil: )

Unique IS 3000 points. Not part of 3000 points. If I played Tyranids I can only take a Dominatrix for every 3000 points. So in a 6000 point army I can take two. I can't take two Dominatrix for anything less than 6000 points. Same with Wind Rider Hosts, Guild Biker Companies, Raven Wing etc and so on.

As to making this per 4000 points I have only one reply to make...
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NOOOOOooooooooooooooooo! *Cough* Now that I have made my position clear...  :glare:

I admit I missed this (Unique Gild Biker Company) when discussing army options with Malleus' (sorry Malleus) but I never said I was perfect. You all just keep thinking I am...  :)) Understandably. :tongue:




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scream
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:17 pm 
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One unique card for 3000 points is a good ratio I think. These cards are not too expensive and the restriction force players to take a lot of other detachment/company cards.

About the squats, I think that the main problem with company cards is the lack of assault performance for the others "assault" commpanies:

Warrior Brotherhood: interesting even if squat warriors are not that good
Ironbreaker Company: expensive and the transport capacity of the leviatan is not really interesting. The company does have any thunderers...
Ironbreaker Hellbore Brotherhood: expensive but like the leviatan, no thunderer
Termite Company: a lot of assault stands...with +2 CAF...
Guild Biker Company: the best assault company for the squats with the +4 CAF (numerous bikes)
Iron Eagle Gyrocopter Wing: gyros are fun but not that good for assault


When you consider the available squat companies, you immediatly see that if you want some good assault stands, you don't choose berserkers, you choose bikes! Moreover, the bikes are insanely fast :p

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Malleus
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:24 pm 
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So will the *unique* attribute be added in the gold version for bike company? not that it matters tremendously, 1 company + x squads works as well,
and I agree that the squats other companies arent that hot, the berserkers are not good for assaults (considering most armies assaulters seem to be +4,+6) and for some reason 5 squats with Imperium heavyweapons only get -1 TSM ! making them (almost) useless,

and not that I've tried the other companies ever, (never had any leviathan or tunnelers) but they seem like a waste of the paper they were written on.. fluffy but useless)
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zap123
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:17 pm 
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@Warhead - Nice catch, so no real need to up the Unique level seeing it is basically 1 for 0-5950 points, 2 for 6000-8950, etc.

I also liked the old FREE cards for Eldar.  I thought it was a cool touch, but that's water long under the bridge...I can remember losing that argument in version 1.1  :p

@Malleus - Unique has already been added to the Guild Bikers co., Saim-Hann WILD RIDERS (c'mon, doesn't anyone else think the name is wrong?), and IG Rough Riders.

I don't think the issue with the Guild Bikers Company is that they get much free, it is simply that they are a bit too good for the points as individual detachments, and when you then roll them up into one, massively hard to break company they become 'unpleasant'.  Now, all armies have the odd "excellent value for the points" units and I'm sure no one begrudges the Squat player a Guild Biker co., but multiples are not so nice.

I agree with Scream that the Squats don't have great alternative Assault troops (though don't underestimate the re-roll 1's on the Infantry), but then they aren't meant to are they?  Squats have always been take and hold type guys, and late game objective grabs are by grinding all opposition to paste then waddling in with the troops rather than a gung ho charge in to HtH.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:52 pm 
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I could be wrong since I don't know all of of them of the top of my head, but aren't all of the "unique" cards just that, one of a kind? It seems to me if something truly is unique, you can't have more than one in an army.

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Warhead
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:39 pm 
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I could be wrong since I don't know all of them of the top of my head, but aren't all of the "unique" cards just that, one of a kind? It seems to me if something truly is unique, you can't have more than one in an army.

Damn your cold Dwarf logic DS. I thought that when I first read the Unique rule but I was quite willing to let it slide just so I could get more of what I wanted.  :whistle: Perhaps Unique is a name needing changed... (Rare? Restricted? Too Damn good to let you have more than one or two no matter how many of the little suckers you get with every purchase...) Only one Guild Bike Company/Wind Rider Host per army is Unique NO! Only one Raven Wing Company per army is Unique... (reluctant) yes! :sigh:

Saim-Hann WILD RIDERS (c'mon, doesn't anyone else think the name is wrong?), and IG Rough Riders.

Wind Rider Host - Available to all Eldar (2x Jet Bikes 1x Vypers) - Unique - 1 Per 3000 points
Wild Rider Host - Siam Hann Only (3x Jet Bikes, 2x Vypers) - Unique - 1 Per 3000 points

I have no problems with this name change but for the record you are screwing up my painted army order of battle. I'm thinking bad thoughts in your general direction.

I think Rough Riders should be a specific cards and Unique. Not all IG Cav are Rough riders true. I would like a special ability for the Rough Riders but most players hate that sort of thing. (Argh, more to remember). I would suggest a better morale roll 3+ and leave it at that. )R ... I have been playing my IG Heavy Cavalry at +2Caf and I gave them the "Charge" ability. (+1 Caf when they charge and engage in close combat.) It just made sense to me. I also made cheaper Light Cavalry but that's another horror story.

Say, I know there have been some attempts but has there been any further attempts to differentiate between Cadian, Catachan, Mordian etc Guard units in an Army?) This may need a new thread of it's own to answer though.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:50 pm 
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It sounds like what you're looking for is a "Special" card that can be taken more than once, but the size of the army limits how many you can take. I might be confusing my games, but isn't there already something like that in the NetEpic rules already?

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Warhead
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:22 pm 
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Mooommy! There's a nasty ol' Dwarf trying to break my favourite toys! Nobody mentioned Special Cards! Nothing to see, move along!  :oo:

Please don't change the Cards any more. I like the cards the way they where. I think the changes to the game system are incredible and work a treat. Not perfect but I don't want/need perfect. But I hate the more extreme Card changes from v5 onwards.  :_(  If you want to change something look to adding new stuff. More minis are always good news IMO. Special Cards!.. you should be ashamed.  :tongue:

I also liked the old FREE cards for Eldar.  I thought it was a cool touch, but that's water long under the bridge...I can remember losing that argument in version 1.1  

Are the people who you lost to still playing or have they all moved on to EA and we can re-change our game back the way we like it?.. Just a cheeky, sneeky thought implant. :whistle:




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zap123
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:31 am 
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It's hard coming in after the flurry of posts while I've been sleeping  :p .

- I agree that perhaps 'Restricted' would be a better name for the current 'Unique', and perhaps there should be a real 'Unique' for "you can only ever have 1" stuff like the Ravenwing etc.

- I have no problems with this name change but for the record you are screwing up my painted army order of battle. I'm thinking bad thoughts in your general direction.


How so?  I had a neat Biel-Tan Wind Rider host back in the day.  I painted one more sqd of Jetbikes and I had 2 Jetbike Hosts  :;):  

- I'd be keen to delete the Saim-Hann Wind Rider company and give them 1 free detachment of Jetbikes instead. :whistle:  Given most of the Ork Free stuff stayed I do struggle to see why the Eldar bits had to go.  I do like some of the replacements though, so apart from Saim-Hann I'm fine with what we have now.

- I'd love to chop up the Militaris book and have variant lists for the major Regiments...an Attilan all cavalry list appeals as much as a Catachan Jungle Fighters or Tallarn Desert raider lists.  I wonder if we'd get much consensus though.  For example, I for one would cut all non-Gorgon mechanised formations out of the standard IG list, and either leave them for the Tech Guard (preferred option) or make them a codex list that can't take any non-mechanised infantry.  In a non-traditionalist move though, I'd ditch the Rhino HQ transports for Chimera.  I'd also remove their organic Titans so they'd be forced to use their allies points on AMTL support.  The Sky-Wolf company would go too.  Lots of little changes here and there too, though I think we ironed out the worst of it for 5.2/Gold.  How's that tally with others thoughts?  :vD




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Warhead
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:49 am 
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I'd be keen to delete the Saim-Hann Wind Rider company and give them 1 free detachment of Jetbikes instead

Gaak! Urgle! *Choke!* You wouldn't!

I would rather see a Wild Rider Free card that provides the Wind Rider Host with the special ability of "Cool as hell" - Whenever these guys ride you lose, haha. Ok, maybe not that but Dodge -1 to hit when on Charge Orders? I already use this for my Ravenwing though.  :whistle:

I'd love to chop up the Militaris book and have variant lists for the major Regiments...
I've looked at and tried some of the attempts and found them far too powerful. I've even tried to do it myself in various ways and only managed to get myself turned around and confused.

I tried the abilities route but that ones a dead end. My last attempt ended with additional cards that only certain armies can take but with restricted access to other cards. (Tried to keep to the 40K fluff). So if you took Cadian you would be able to take Cadian Shock Troops, Karskin (Kurskin?.. whatever), Mechanised Infantry etc but wouldn't be able to take certain other things like Horse Cavalry (you could take bikes), Beastmen... you get the idea.
I tried to do the same with Veteran IG too (tried to use it for my Campaign games) but I can't get this to work satisfactory either.

However, I'm not beat yet and I'm still willing to try. I'm just stuck.

I'd ditch the Rhino HQ transports for Chimera.
As would I and have but for one problem. Who can afford all the extra Chimeras. What a hassle. I also don't think that Imperial Infantry Companies should have a Transport for their HQ units either.

I'd also remove their organic Titans so they'd be forced to use their allies points on AMTL support
I would do this with the Space Marines too. However, due to the combined arms close support of Imperial armies there is something to be said for Imperial Allies to Imperial Armies being a bit less restrictive. I'm not sure if this is already a 50/50 or if it's 75/25 split.




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scream
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Quote: (zap123 @ 30 Dec. 2008, 04:31 )

It's hard coming in after the flurry of posts while I've been sleeping  :p .

- I agree that perhaps 'Restricted' would be a better name for the current 'Unique', and perhaps there should be a real 'Unique' for "you can only ever have 1" stuff like the Ravenwing etc.

- I have no problems with this name change but for the record you are screwing up my painted army order of battle. I'm thinking bad thoughts in your general direction.


How so?  I had a neat Biel-Tan Wind Rider host back in the day.  I painted one more sqd of Jetbikes and I had 2 Jetbike Hosts  :;):  

- I'd be keen to delete the Saim-Hann Wind Rider company and give them 1 free detachment of Jetbikes instead. :whistle:  Given most of the Ork Free stuff stayed I do struggle to see why the Eldar bits had to go.  I do like some of the replacements though, so apart from Saim-Hann I'm fine with what we have now.

- I'd love to chop up the Militaris book and have variant lists for the major Regiments...an Attilan all cavalry list appeals as much as a Catachan Jungle Fighters or Tallarn Desert raider lists.  I wonder if we'd get much consensus though.  For example, I for one would cut all non-Gorgon mechanised formations out of the standard IG list, and either leave them for the Tech Guard (preferred option) or make them a codex list that can't take any non-mechanised infantry.  In a non-traditionalist move though, I'd ditch the Rhino HQ transports for Chimera.  I'd also remove their organic Titans so they'd be forced to use their allies points on AMTL support.  The Sky-Wolf company would go too.  Lots of little changes here and there too, though I think we ironed out the worst of it for 5.2/Gold.  How's that tally with others thoughts?

- "Restricted" is fine :)

- It would be great to have some special major IG regiments. Just like it's done actually with the Adeptus Astartes book:

- authorized cards
- prohibited cards
- Special card available for this regiment

With enough restriction, we could find a solution to have specialized regiments that would not be overpowered.

Please, keep the Sky-Wolf company!! It took me long time and a lot of €€€ to complete this company :sulk: It could fit in an airborn regiment where superheavy could be prohibited for example...Unfortunately, I'm not an IG expert but I can learn.




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Warhead
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:57 pm 
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Sky-Wolf company

I meant to ask. What is this? Some sort of 80's show with a kick-ass helicopter? :cool:

We shouldn't have to get rid of any established things surely? I hate losing stuff.

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zap123
 Post subject: Unique - should it be more unique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:28 pm 
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We shouldn't have to get rid of any established things surely? I hate losing stuff.


I'd have thought we'd add more than a few new company/support/special cards so could afford to delete some of the Questionable stuff....but I take Screams' point too.  I wasn't really proposing those changes, just showing what I'd to the Militaris list if I was given free reign....and hopefully making the point about divergent views :) .

I think we should probably avoid adding anymore bloat to the IG book.  Perhaps a separate "Renowned Regiments of the Imperium" book is in order.  Special Codex lists for Cadia, Catachan, Mordian, Valhalla, Tallarn, Attilan, Necromundian and any other I've missed (and people have enthusiasm for).  Now, the obvious question that would need to be answered is which era of GW fluff should we base the lists on  :oo:.  Once we'd done that the lists shouldn't be too hard.

Necromundian - Forbidden Cards - Mechanised and Mechanised Assault Company/Support, Rough Riders, Land Speeders, Airborne Company, Skywolf Company.
Additional Cards - Necromundian Scouts - Former Hive Gangers turned Guardsman, these units are near invisable in an urban environment.  Scouts gain the Stealth Ability when in a building, bunker or rubble.

N.Scouts  10cm  0  +1  Lasgun  50cm 5+ 0  Infiltrate, Independent, Special.

Scout Detachment - 5 Scouts for 100 pts. Morale 4.
Scout Company - 3 detachments + normal HQ.  300 pts.

Attilan - Lots of Riders, fast tanks, no SHTs or Arty.

Mordian - Morale 3.

Catachan - +1 CAF/+1 Morale in Woods/Forest....bit obvious I know but hey, it's a start.

:)  :(  :p

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