Glad you guys have come to an understanding. I am one of those who used to play W40k but moved to Epic because of desire to play fairer and more balanced game. I have said before that Epic A has for me the best balance between detail of AT and the abstraction of Epic 40k.

I dont think that Epic A should reproduce every new change from W40k. With the W40k Codex Creep that would make balancing Epic A lists very difficult. But I would want the main theme and character of each W40k army to be somehow reflected in Epic A.

I have never fielded Orks in W40k but did face them as a regular opponent in 3rd/4th edition W40k. I have used Orks occasionally in Epic A and have faced them. Overall I thought that Ork list played well in Epic A, albeit not necessarily as a tournament list unless you min-maxed certain choices.

My preference would be to not make radical changes to the main Epic A Ork list, which so far has struck me as reasonably balanced. So any new stuff in W40k could be respresented in core Ork list using counts-as rule. And then potentially added to variant Ork lists as playtesting allows.

In time I am looking foward to seeingthings like variant Land Raiders and variant Leman Russ tanks in EpicA. But I would want to see them in default SM/IG lists as that could unbalance them. I also would want to see every variant in every variant list- but adding one or two could add character and distinctiveness of variant lists.

Adding more types of Ork big guns could help make a Bad Moonz list more distinctive and play differently than say an Epic A Goffs list and thus both different from EpicA rulebook default Ork list.

Cheers

James

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for me epic isn't about that sort of detail; it's about capturing the flavour of an army or race.

People have already mentioned what many of us (i certainly do) percieve as codex creep within 40k and i'd say that pretty much sums up why 40k and EA orks don't quite match up; the idea being that orks shouldn't or wouldn't be able to field huge numbers of the aforementioned troop types (loota's etc) but it's only the force organisation charts within 40k that allow the prevelance of these troop types...and - dare i say - do you really believe orks should be able to throw out the equivalent firepower as imperial guard; i have to disagree i'm afraid!

Regardless of stats from 40k whereby everything tends to revolve around what a friend of mine tells me are know as MEQ's (Marine Equivalents): forces capable of matching marine armour or taking them down with enough AP3 or equivalent (power weapons for example) weaponry.  

Again, to visit the battlewagon; i'd strongly view it's power, armour and accuracy as part of codex creep and much prefer hordes of junka'd vehicles coming over the horizon!
To sum up - and also to note that i don't wish for this post to come across as too harsh - imagine an EA ork army list changed and balanced (points wise) to represent what's possible and regularly fielded in 40k; one could only imagine that you'd end up with a very different army; in fact probably something a bit more representative of a heavily armed and armoured ELITE force; something orks definitely aren't! (In my mind at least!)

...though come to think of it i would like to see what such a list played like! Curiosity and the cat...

I don't play 40k either for the record; though end up being updated nevertheless by my friends; so do point out if there are any inconsistencies in the above.
Best of yrs,
R>

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I'm also of the opinion that such behaviour shouldn't be applied to other armies either btw.

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@MoK: Don`t know what would be so elite in such an army. No one fields only Meganobz, Battlewagons and Lootas in Wh40k.

The Wh40k Trukk now more represents the Battlewagon in Epic.

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Are 40k ork armies mainly infantry horde's these days then? The impression i got was that you're able to rely quite heavily on multiple things like Shokk Attack guns and lootas?

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To my impression horde-style is widely used.

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ok :-) I'm quite please to hear that actually.

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I'm sure if Epic was still a core game, you would see all sorts of the new 28mm 40K bits show up in 6mm right alongside gruesome, untested rules amendments.  

You could quickly knock out a simple discrepancy between 40K Orks & EA Orks by just renaming Battlewagons "Trukks" with Gunwagons converting to "Battlewagons".  That would line things up just a tad more between the two game systems without mucking up game dynamics.  That's about as much as I'd like to see EA resemble 40K.

Although I sorely miss Epic dictating 40K's vehicle designs and the 30+ odd tanks that used to be part of the Ork arsenal, I don't think EA Orks really need much.  That being said, I would like to see the return of at least one true Ork MBT; perhaps a revival of the Bonebreaka or Goff Lungbursta so that the boyz have something 'ard to get stuck in with.  

Honestly, the oddest thing about coming back to EA Orks from the Space Marine era Orks is the deletion of allll that armour from the lists.

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Well, I'm an old guy, so my memory might not be the best, but I remember an Ork vehicle called "battle wagon" from the old 2nd edition days of 40K that closely matched the current EA battle wagon... or was it Rogue Trader era? Hmm...

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In many ways a good thread this. But I must say I lost it totally when this appeared:1)  The tactics are heavily dependent on the game rules.  Obviously, there is a certain unavoidable level of that.  However, in 40k there seems to be a lot more "playing the rules" than use of real-world military concepts.  That doesn't mean it's a bad game, but I think this crowd generally tends towards wanting something more successful as a simulation.

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Agreed.

Literally everything that made Orks "silly" or "fun" was nicked.  That is probably just a result of the 40K revisioning that beat the Orkyness out of Orks.

Hop Splats, Traktor Kannonz, Pulsa Rokkits, Shokk Attack Gunz, Bubble Chukkas, and the ever-exciting Deflektor Field all seem to have vanished.  Sure, maybe the trauma and tears from years of Imperial & Eldar Titans getting instantly whacked by a lucky Shokk Attack team were too much to bear.

Most of the Mekboy cards are pretty mild and confer certain bonuses to certain units.  Many of them have a potential downside as well, so I doubt they would be game-breaking.  Those would help bring back the Orky flavor!

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But they're still all there! I still have those fond memories of wacky orkiness and - as far as i'm concerned - that's how my orks act! The'yre armed with all those crazy weapons (and i've got the models to prove it!); the stats just aren't differentiated in the rules.
I've got to say i'm glad we've moved to a more streamlined way of doing things; it makes things less random, easier to points cost, and makes for a better game; in short - on a personal note - i have lots more fun but still like to imagine baneblades being picked up in the air and crushed furiosuly when my super lifta droppa (AKA oddyboy ZZapgun battlewagon!) scores 3 hits :-)

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I´m with Man of Kent here - there is no need for goofy tables of old for flavour: The Oddboy upgrades yield, with far less complication, randomness and balance problems, more or less the same results.

The rest happens in your head guys. Use your imagination, not charts&cards!

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How is Double and March in any sense of the word NOT "playing the rules"?

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Neal

If you had two wierdboy towers and relied on them winning (or loosing) the day for you then you deserve to loose. And the same goes for every "flip a coin" army. But that's not the same as adding some fairly random drama. Having a sudden re-roll, or self combustion(!) don't alter the tactics. It just makes it more "orky".
Just as having the occasional extra attack on a formation as a whole due to some having a spiked tail doesn't. Especially not if you've paid for having it but might get -1" move instead as the tail grows out as a leg instead...

Please Neal, don't defend the broken rules. They are there, nEA is playable, be content with that. But please don't say it's not playing the rules. It's just like clipping assault. Such would never exist in reality, just as Double wouldn't.

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