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Skimmers forcing Firefights

 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:28 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 19 Sep. 2008, 15:05 )

Better take a hard look at War Engines which already allow this then.  I don't see how or why this would open up any doors to confuse assaults.  This is a very specific situation that has little relation to anything else.  In assaults you fall into one of two categories: ground or skimmer.  If you aren't one then you are the other.  We're not talking about an endless variety of combinations here.  At least, I'm not.

Actually, I do not think you are correct here. I am pretty sure the War Engine rule was set up this way because IG SHT company formations found themselves at a disadvantage if engaged in CC combats, where there are many examples in history of tanks providing mutual protection by clearing each others hulls. If there is a single WE attacked only by enemy in CC, then the WE is obliged to use CC factors - unless it is a skimmer of course :p

The point is that WE can only use FF against distant targets and CC against those in B-B. So, yes a Cobra can lift off and use its FF values against Shining Spears attackers, but only against those that are in LoS and which are not in B-B with itself.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 19 Sep. 2008, 14:39 )

However, several people have alluded to combat initiative - where the attacker determines the kind of combat that will take place. So, how about this as a concept (the words will need tidying up) :-
When attacked, Skimmers may always choose to use their firefight value in an assault, even if there are enemy units in base contact with the skimmer. This represents the skimmer lifting off the ground out of reach of enemy ground units. When initiating the assault (even against other Skimmers), a Skimmer can declare the kind of combat that will take place (Close Combat or Fire Fight) which represents the advantage of surprise etc. In either case, the enemy must also use the relevant Close Combat or Fire Fighting values.
So where Landspeeders attack Shining Spears, they can declare that the combat will be resolved with Fire Fighting factors, while if the Shining Spears attack the Land Speeders, they can declare it will be a Close Combat assault.

Okay, I'm starting to get to grips with this debate a bit more now, and I have had a change to think about it, so taking Ginger's idea as a starting point:

I quite like that idea on paper, but would there be any other issues that then arise from this change?  You could end up with a situation where somebody manages to retain the initiative multiple times (I'm speaking as an Eldar player here), which would enable him/her to potentially activate several skimmer formations in a row, take engage actions, and really put opponents on the back foot.  Now, I'm not saying this would happen all the time, but it may be rather dispiriting for the opposing player.  It may not be a major problem at all, but I just thought I'd raise it in case it was something that had been overlooked.

Moscovian:  Thanks for the welcome.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:44 pm 
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The 'Jet-bike assault' is one of the reasons why it was proposed to reduce the armour of Jet-bikes to 5+ in Eldar 1.8 amendments (but not adopted in the 2008 amendments). Multiple assaults can happen anyway and is one of the key strategies in the Eldar arsenal - but equally very hard to bring off successfully.

However, while skimmers can be 'dispiriting' to opponents (and IMO this was the reason behind this thread in the first place), as Neal says, this particualr debate about Skimmer Vs Skimmer is actually quite a rare event, only really happening between Tau and Eldar armies. As such it is a design loop-hole that has never been satisfactorily closed.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 19 Sep. 2008, 16:09 )

And what about my suggestion of allowing the initating Skimmer to choose whether to combat will be CC of FF??

A great idea, even better than Moscovians initial idea. I second that.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:26 pm 
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I'm not all that keen on the idea of "charge bonuses" like that at epic scale. And what if it goes to a second round?

I prefer Mosc's original idea.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:02 pm 
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In case of a second round, leave the initiative with the original attacker. It is no big deal anyway.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:12 am 
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Quote: (redsimon @ 19 Sep. 2008, 11:00 )

A great idea, even better than Moscovians initial idea. I second that.

Aside from one or more people's issue with the "logic" of the situation is there actually a game issue involved here?

Because you really can't any changes because something seems illogical to you.

The rule works fine the way it is and anything else needlessly complicates the game.




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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:50 am 
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PG, if you think it is complicates things (or even warrants being called a 'rule change') then you obviously didn't read this thread or the SG thread that preceeded it.

Rather than regurgitate it though, I'd recommend reading the original SG banter between Greg and I.  This thread will make a lot more sense then.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:12 am 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 19 Sep. 2008, 17:50 )

Rather than regurgitate it though, I'd recommend reading the original SG banter between Greg and I.  This thread will make a lot more sense then.

I did read it.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:09 pm 
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I did read it.


Well... Okay, let's try to break this down:

What is complicated about either approach that Ginger or myself came up with?

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Ginger's suggestion has had me thinking, and I don't think it solves the issues. As I see it, the issues with skimmer cc/ff are twofold...

Firstly, CC skimmers like shining spears should probably be able to use their CC stat against other skimmers.

However, conversely, just being rammed by another skimmer shouldn't really stop a skimmer from firefighting. Should a Monolith not be able to use its flux arc just because a landspeeder is bumping up against it?

This is why I think Mosc's suggestion of treating skimmers more like war engines makes more sense. Let them each choose whether to use CC or FF if in base contact.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:17 am 
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I will agree that it would be physically possible for something like a shinning spear to make the odd close combat attack against another skimmer but I don't think they should be able to use there CC value in E:A.

WIth E:A being a rather abstract rule system representing the general combat I think FF is more appropriate.  While you would get the odd CC attack in each base is representing 3 shinning spears and probably only one of them would actually get a CC attack in while the rest of the combat would be resolved by short range firefight as everything zips about.

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Guys, are the Eldar Shining Spears the only skimmer affected by this because they have better CC than FF??

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 Post subject: Skimmers forcing Firefights
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 21 Sep. 2008, 14:57 )

Guys, are the Eldar Shining Spears the only skimmer affected by this because they have better CC than FF??

actually, yes, i think so.

this whole threat seems to me like a big "it's unfair why can't my shining spears use CC" whine coming from an eldar player.

try playing space marines instead  :p

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