Battlewagon is as armoured as Leman Russ (better, actually: grot riggers). Lootas shoot like crazy (and are omitted in epic (there is even miniature for them: that plastic ork that have that big gun on its shoulder, five of them on same base, voila, Loota)), BW and Looted wagon can throw as much (and basically as accurate) template as IG (Battlecannon S8 AP3, Large blast. Boomgun (from Looted wagon) S8 AP3. And ordnance scatters 2d6-BS (so 1 inch difference in Ork and IG shooting). Battlewagons can carry 20 Boyz, or 10 Mega-Armoured Nobz. Dethrolla does d6 S10 hits at close combat.

So... Shooty battlewagon: 4+RA save, 1 killcannon AP4/AT4, 4 bigshoota AP/AT6, Big Gun AP/AT5 (no transport capability)
Transportbattlewagon: 4+RA save, Big gun and few bigshoota. transport: 4 (Meganobs count as 2)
Truk, 6 save, 1 big shoota, transport 2

Boyz could have Big shootas just like IG have their heavy weapons (1 per 2 stands of boyz). Manz (mega-nobz), 4+RA save, Macroweapon CC.

Etc etc etc


Why every other army gets "40K wags Epic" treatment but orks are forgotten?

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And no Shokk Attack Gun, no Tractor Beam, no Lifta-Droppa.  

And that heavy weapon split off you talked of, that's something all should have. Even marines have only one HVY WPN per squad, ie ½ per troupé.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Well, where´s the Soopagun in 40kid? What are the stats of a Zzap Gun?

If Epic were to follow 40k with its (seemingly) yearly codices and infamous codex creep, where exactly would it land us?

I presume in a position where we are constantly lagging behind and never get to balance army lists anyway.
To put it somewhat sharply, if you want to play 40k ... play 40k!

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Well, we have the opportunity to not fallin the 40k traps, if we choose to.
And at the same time Epic@GW is from the same time and place as 40k@GW. So what's in one ought to be in the other, if scale wise possible.
Especially if the model IS there.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Epic is a battle, 40k a skirmish.

What seems great in a 10 minute engagement is not much good if its got no ammo left, has problems coordinating resupply, has poor tactical cohesion etc etc.

In 40k Orks smash as a horde into the enemy and overrun, just like 'barbarians' vs Roman legionnaires. Epic gets that.

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JJ notes in the rulebook that the Orks have been heavily abstracted in order to make their panoply of unit types usable at Epic scale.

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What everyone else said.  Jervis laid out the philosophy pretty well in the rulebook.  Lootaz are Big Gunz (Shooty Boyz are listed in the "counts as" section).  The various Mek weapons are either Zzap-guns or Soopagunz.

The Battlewagon is a complete anomaly.  It was created well after the Epic system for wagonz.  It used an older name that Epic already had in use and revamped it completely differently.  It's essentially something between the current Wagonz and Fortresses in Epic.

Why every other army gets "40K wags Epic" treatment but orks are forgotten?

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Neal

As Neal has said.

Plus Orks are not forgotten, but they are currently the least modified list that we have. This has made them a good bench mark to compare changes to other armies.

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The 40k Ork Battlewagon isn't the same vehicle as the Epic one.

The Epic Wagonz are closer to Trukks, the 40k Wagon is more of a half-sized Fort.

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I have to admit that the battlewagon thing does bother me a bit. It seems to me like gun wagons in E:A are pretty close to what a looted vehicle is in 40k (more or less), and as someone else pointed out, a battlewagon in E:A bears alot of resemblance to a 40k trukk (better armour, but same otherwise). But the 40k battlewagon is not here.

Would it be so bad if we had a third ork tank AV? I don't think there should be 2 separate versions of the thing, just:

Kustum Wagon
Type: AV
Speed: 30cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 4+
FF: 4+
weapons:
2 x twin bigshootas 30cm AP5+/AT6+
Big gun 45cm AP5+/AT5+

Notes: transport (4 + 2 grots)

I don't think the kill cannon needs to be included (let the oddboy upgrade represent that). RA also not needed, since that doesn't follow the rest of the ork wagons or fortresses. I'd guess point cost in the ballpark of 65 points.

As for the rest...
Nobz in E:A are about halfway between normal and meganobz in 40k, and the warlord character upgrade makes up the difference (there wouldn't be all that many mega-armoured boyz in an epic sized force anyway, unless it was an alt list).
Lootas are just big guns. Any weird stuff like shokk attak gunz, etc, can be represented with oddboy upgrades.

I do think that the idea of 40k orks getting more options than epic orks is pretty funny considering that the situation was the reverse for such a long time.

Fir Epicifyed 40k Orks see this thread:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 83;t=11610

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They don't and shouldn't.

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I´m pretty sure the death of Epic will be the 40kmania where some guys (with good intentions, indeed) think every fart GW produces to sell more 40k miniatures has to be represented in epic. Wrong way, very wrong way. Epic is abstraction lives from it and needs it. Epic creation was far more foreseeing than the constant changes in 40k some guys try to clamp on.....

In some cases we quarrel about themes likle "Uh there is a flamer possible if i take blablabla so every base has to have ignore cover and MW because of sentence two in row 6 beside special rule zeta in codex >irrelevant<. To be honest this horrifies me. Kills a decent game and makes me digging in my miniatures.

Orks are a very good example. Instead of using the "count as" rule some guys want to implement units exactly to the last word anywhere written with some obscure transformation rules of course. Do you really think this hits the core of the game? I think not.

It´s just my opinion, so don´t struggle with it. If you think this is the right way, why not. But it´s not for me and I´m pretty sure not only for me. Destroys a good functioning army list.

Soren

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I think Orks are good. But so are all other lists, in general, too. So Nicodemus in that sense is right that iff we start following new winds in 40k in other lists then why not in Orks?

I prefer not fixing ANY list by 40k. Take the current lists, balance them and be with it, unless they start pouring out new figures.

(and all that 'this weapon has this name so it should have these stats!' is utter nonsense - give balanced stats to weapons and then name them something for fluff)