If you look at the stats from last year I believe that the BL were the 'most balanced' with a 33% win rate.

If there is such a big problem with DPs why did the only player took take them come nearly bottom - and is a better player than that position?
I find it pretty ironic that you are complaining about BL Gavin when you play Eldar - who have gone throught this exact cycle of being percieved as overpowered before people gained experience of how to play them and realised how to counteract them.

Like Eldar BL have won very few tournaments - I believe only 2 - GW GT last year when 3 out of 6 of my opponents had never played them and London this year when only Alansa had played them before.

What armies are competitive without 2-4 WEs? Marines need Thawks+Warhounds, IG need SHTs(+warhounds), Eldar SHTS. vampires, titans, Orks - landas,LatD -questors, subjagators.
I very much doubt there have been many tourney wins without 3+ WEs - and for all the complaining BL have never won with more than 3

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

To repeat a previous post here is the BL list that I took down to the London Tournament.

Daemon Pool - 10 x Lesser Daemons
BL Retinue + Obliterator
BL Retinue + Havocs + Rhinos
Chosen + Daemon Prince + 2 Obliterators
Raptors
Falorn Hope + Rhinos
Falorn Hope + Rhinos
Bikes
Death Wheel
Death Wheel

Not too excessive I believe and certainly beatable.

With regard to armies requiring 2+ WEs to win, I would just get people to look at Orks including Speed Freaks and Ferals. These are true Hoard armies on the EA scale and can with the exception of a Landa be played without War Engines to great effect.

I also believe that this can be done with LatD, but am still testing this.

On the statistical note I would have thought that Dave's two tournament wins with LatD at the start of the season would place them as the most broken army list.

Remember this is all just for fun.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Sure can. And they are damn nasty with WEs as well :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Good point

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

None. I think that if you don't come to the table with WE's or something to deal with WE's and Titans then you are going to lose.

Which isn't to say that we shouldn't tweak the CSM list to help remove the multi-Feral and multi-Assault Co lists but the fact that CSM lists with WEs do better than CSM lists without them is self-evident in the same way that Marine lists without Titans do worse than marine lists that include them

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

All interesting points guys, but the fact remains that the Chaos lists seem to be doing significantly better than the other races in the UK tournaments at the moment. Now that may well be because most of the other players do not know how to handle them (any more than they know how to handle Tiny-Tim's Speed Freaks, or TRC Siege-Masters ) and it may equally be due to incredibly bad dice or many other factors including the skill of the people using them - or it could just be that the list is a little over-powered.

In terms of statistics, it is early days and as Tim said, the "championship" is really just for fun. However, it is worth noting that the UK tournament format is very consistent, and as such it does provide an ideal basis for analysis.

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Its difficult to draw conclusions from this years tourni results with regards chaos black legion.

The UK tourni scene still represents a fairly small pool of players, so you are likely to get effects where one army is doing very well when looked at over a small number of tournamnets - this effect is likely to be magnified if a few of the top players are using an army in a given set of tourni's.

For instance at the moment both Nathan and Steve's regular armies are chaos and Dave T's is Lost and Damned.

Speaking from my own experience, Black legion seem reasonably well balanced. Infact my current results against them are very good, having lost only a single tournament game to a black legion army in the last two years.

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Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
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You keep repeating this as if people are disputing the point. I don't think anyone is.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

What was the plan?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

And I (not the greatest of players here) have had some success with with my Marine army which has only a single thunderhawk under it's warengine belt. Like Rug I have a couple of tactics for dealing with warengines. I think the important point is you need some plan for dealing with warengines, even if it's just ignoring them. Having a warengine yourself is just one trick you can adopt. Must be said though that my army can not handle more than a few WE's.

As steve mentioned, I've played BL three times at tournament. What I fear and hate going against them is not the marines (which without TSKNF are a bit pansy) but demons and the warengines. With a bit more practice I'm sure I'll get a handle on it though.

Certainly there is a feeling that BL are overpowered, but from the point of view of the UK tourny scene I think it's still very early days.

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[url=http://tinyurl.com/bott2015][img]http://i62.tinypic.com/205fcow.jpg[/img][/url]

The fact is we have some great BL player around atm!

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http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii249/kev101/

Well experience doesn't count for much either as I get schooled using my CSM force all the time :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I disagree.