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They are free, yes, but not entirely free; for they have a master, and that master is Law.

Those numbers look good, I'll need to pass them on to my normal Chaos opponent due to his lack of current web access (I don't know how he lives like that).

On the topic of Ferals I have to say I don't really know what they do, recently I just kill them dead the moment I get to activate.  

My Deathstrikes kill one right off unless I'm playing a newb and trying to teach him the rules as we go, and I generally dedicate a pile of Russes to killing the invariably;y appearing second Feral.

I'm about as sick of seeing them as i am of Warhounds, lol.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

I don't think this is the right way to go. I know people complained about the lack of an Oblitarator option for the Chosen but the issue that we want to solve specifically is the use of them with the Chosen.

I cannot recall a single person discussing a misuse of Obliterators that was not in a Chosen formation and not a direct result of the cost differential between the Obliterators and the Chosen

Since the game has no way to price the unit differently when taken with Chosen there is no other option than to remove them as an upgrade.

This is heavy handed but increasing the cost will only make them appear only in Chosen formations. They are already too expensive to include in CSM formations. Making them more expensive will eliminate them as an option for those formations.

Secondly, I think that LI's original suggestions need to be tested before people start trying to tweak and fiddle with them.

Opinions without test games are not useful.

I would also like to suggest that the reason that people are against removing them as an upgrade for Chosen is simply indicative of how damn good they are.

Try a few games without them in your Chosen before making suggestions. LI's original suggestions all seemed quite reasonable and a good starting point for test games.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Bump

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This is backwards is it not? The Decimator was meant to loose MW and the Hellmouth is meant to remove IC

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I think it makes more sense this way, both in terms of balance and for theme/fluff reasons. The decimator cannon blasts MW shells and blows things apart - why should it have ignore cover? The decimator is not that overpowered, when moved to the Titan allowance removing MW might make it entirely unattractive. The Feral's Hellmouth rains indescriminate death down on its enemies (and the Feral is universally agreed to be in need of a reduction in power and MW being more powerful than Ignore Cover in most situations).

Because that is the way we have modelled large explosive shells in other army lists. Ignore Cover is for huge explosions that level buildings and rip through barriers. MW is for high energy weapons or explosive penetrators.

If the Decimator is a huge gun then giving it MW makes it just as effective against armour which is not what we want to model in the unit. It is meant as a gun that takes out infantry and blows units out of buildings or cover. It isn't intened to be something that rips through Leman Russ tanks.

The Decimator keeping IC and the Hellmouth retaining MW were, unless I am mistaken, also the suggested changes from many sources in our earlier discussions about changes to those units.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

And removing IC would also be a way to reduce its power.

The two units don't require both abilities (as they are too powerful with them) and it makes more sense to leave IC on the Decimator making it more logical to remove IC from the Hellmouth in order to at least differentiate the two units and give them slightly unique parts to play.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Of chosen and obliterators:
the problem is that the lord is "free" i.e. included in unit costs and becomes "cheaper and cheaper" the more units you buy. But as you do not pay that extra lord cost if you take obliterators, the system does not work.

Thus the basic fix for chosen formation would be to make it cost like 260 + 55 per extra chosen. Maybe the basic formation cost could be upped a bit, but as I have rarely seen any other formation types than 4 chosen + 1-2 obliterators, then the question is are the basic 4 chosen underpriced...

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Of daemon prince:
the new non-TK daemon prince hardly seems worth 110-150* points. At least it should have inspiring then as in France.

*Basic unit costs ~28-55, lord +30-50, dp +50

@pixelgeek: I thought the Decimater was meant to be a predecessor of the Shadowsword. So taking out Leman Russes = having MW fits more than Ignore Cover.

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It is meant to be an earlier chassis design that was superceded by the Shadowsword and the Baneblade, not specifically as a Shadowsword. The cannon was supposed to be an giant gun with a huge explosive force.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

The Decimator with MW and Ferals with IC are definitely the better fit, both fluff and powerwise.

The Feral, with its speed and shields, is definitely the more flexible platform, and would do well with an "inferior" weapon system.

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Because...?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Don't forget that the Decimator is an Eoic-only unit that we created so the only fluff for it is the fluff that Audrey, Jervis and I wrote.

So the "fluff" is what is in the rules so far and we wrote that :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I disagree. Ignore cover is pretty much exclusively for indescriminate flame-type weapons. MW is for large-scale explosives that tear apart buildings and battletanks. The only weapon that has Ignore Cover and is an explosive weapon is the Demolisher - and there's considerable misgivings about that - it really "ought" to be a Macro Weapon (balance considerations aside).

Other than that, what has Ignore Cover? Hellhounds, heavy flamers, scorchas, vomit cannons, bombards - all "flame" weapons. All big cannon/explosive weapons - soopaguns, earthshakers, bombs, hellfire cannons - don't have Ignore Cover.

As it stands, Ignore Cover is really for weapons that are indiscriminate "spray" weapons, with the exception of demolishers and a few eldar weapons that are a category all of their own. Large, building-levelling cannons are MW (note that MW negate any cover save for that reason).