There were several problems with the sacrifice system.

The biggest problem was that it was way too cheap.  d6 daemons for 25 points made them ~7 points each, or about half of what IG guardsmen or cultists cost.  Added to the flexibility of the system (bad roll or too many casualties and you just let them go and re-summon).

The second issue was that it was pretty random.  2d6 produces a relatively big statistical deviation and resulted in way too much variation for a single die roll.  At the current valuation of ~25-30 points per LD, you can reasonably expect swings of 75+ points off the average, which is a 150 point spread overall.  That's a huge amount of variability for a single assault.

The third issue is the ease with which they could be countered.  All you had to do was break or keep away from the formation and daemons couldn't be summoned effectively.  Of course, the cheap cost allowed sacrifices to be spammed so it wasn't a big deal in play.  However, the important point is that it effectively prevents a simple cost increase.  Even if you managed to get just the right mix of average points to lost sacrifices to average number of daemons, it would still be very luck-driven.  The average over many games might be fine, but you'd still have a big luck factor within a single game.

I think there is a way to counter the major problems.

First, keep the access/pool idea.  It helps with "wasted" points, so it makes balance easier.  It works with the current summoning system and it works for Nids' spawning.  No need to reinvent the wheel when this concept clearly works.

Second, since we've evened out the consistency a bit, it is easier to balance the price without major 'swings' in effective value.

Third, keep the 2d3 instead of d6.  We're dealing with the equivalent of ~25+ points per pip, all of which is applied to a single formation in the course of one action.  There's simply a limited amount of variability which will be acceptable.  Too much randomness and you're just playing "flips" instead of a tactical game.

I don't know if anyone read the previous discussion, but the idea I threw out was...

~25 points for "access" to up to 2 sacrifices per turn
~100 points for a sacrifice that allowed 2d3 summoning points
1 sacrifice can be used to maintain all the daemons on a particular formation

That's going to put the total daemon cost in the 30-35 point range.  Greater Daemons are worth ~175 points, so they should cost ~6 summoning points, which will require 2 sacrifices but produce a high likelihood of summoning them and will usually bring a small retinue of LDs with them.

The "access" could be a character, like the current Icon Bearers and Champions, or it could be a generic formation ability like the Pact.

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Obviously, LOTS of analysis and playtesting would be required.  However, this would keep the fast, flexible, and simple nature of the original sacrifice system while making luck less decisive and removing at least a large portion of the abuse potential.

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Neal

I like the sound of it

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

If you like the tyranid Spawning rules those could just be adapted straight over to daemon summoning.

Forget summoning them during the activation, summon them when you Teleport things. Use Characters and Icons for Synapse points.

You spend points to fill the daemon pool and you can't summon/spawn more than that at any time.

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Mechanically, that would probably work fine.

The problem, imho, is that the feel is completely different.  Steady summoning well in advance of activation provides a nice relentless horde feel, but it loses the "gotcha" effects and the attendant wariness in the opponent that summoning at the action creates.  Also, a steady, unending stream of casualties returning to the board completely loses the concept that daemons can turn fickle and that you don't get a second chance when dealing with the dark powers.

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Neal

This is really the concept that should differentiate "Tyranid spawning" from "Daemon summoning"... well said, Neal!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Just to note there are other options for the random dice rolls, stuff like D3+1 etc, even even Dx+y to cover every option (D2, D3, D4 etc.)

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Had a test game today with the current system. I actually managed to get out my GD and all the LDs but to do so I had to spend 100 additional points for the Chaos Champion and the Icon Bearer.

Seems like a good price to pay considering I got out the Bloodthirster :-)

One thing that I did notice was that I was quite concerned about the safety of the Icon Bearer (something that wasn't an issue in the Sacrifice system). Not sure how much I ultimately like the idea of all my deamons disappearing with the loss of the IB but more games may get me used to it. There was a nice tension though

Neal, have you ever factored in the disappearance of the daemons into the costs that you did? And is this something we want to perhaps try to factor in?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Was thinking about this today

We added the Chaos Champion and Icon Bearer to allow the Augment Summoning and Daemonic Focus abilities to be placed on a character upgrade.

If the Daemonic Focus is being handled by the Sacrifices then we can remove Daemonic Focus and make the Icon Bearer the focus for summoning that it is intended to be (and make a lot of fluff fans a lot happier).

This may ultimately save the Chaos player an upgrade slot which currently they are in short supply of if you want to boost summoning.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Sort of.

The basic assumption that we need to be ~25-30 points for daemons is based on unit-unit comparisons.  The in-game costs estimate 25-35 are based on various combinations used to get the daemons in play, e.g. 4 pacts + 10 LDs = 30 points per daemon.

The various benefits and weaknesses based on deployment/disappearance were assumed to be roughly equal.  What they lose in vulnerability via disappearance was made up for by the fact that they are not vulnerable (off-board) until just before they assault.

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Neal

There is that isn't there :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Well, considering the original post's minimal changes thing, what's really wrong with the current system, apart from the greater daemon issue? Personally, I think it works well.

It's just the big daemons that need to be adjusted a bit. Maybe six summoning points. Maybe something else. I mean, it's not like they appear in Lost and Damned lists without that altar giving a summoning bonus. Of course, one idea would be to lower the summoning costs to six in chaos marine (including cult) lists to represent their more favoured status and experience, having the Lost & Damned rabble still needing to rely on those mobile altars to show their devotion to their god. After all, trying to get six on 4d3 or eight on 4d3+2 is the same thing. Maybe this could lead to a small point decrease for L&D greater daemons, since they either need an expensive (and slow) altar or reliance on random rolls to summon it and then have a bigger chance of failing an activation.