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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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Ok, lots of questions. I'll try to do my best.
What does Iron Discipline really do, apparently it makes Elysian Sentinels and Valkyries (but not any units the Valks can carry) harder to break, but why?
To represent Iron Discipline, all Elysian units (does not include Imperial Navy) require +1 BM to break a unit and they do not incur a -1 while rallying if an enemy is within
30cm..
As the rule is stated above directly from the list, it does not apply to just Sentinels and Valkyries. It applies to all Elysian formations and units. I would be glad to change the wording if it would help make that clearer.
Ok, Iron Discipline was introduced because of a number of factors, some game related, some fluff related:
1. Iron discipline was one of the doctrines assigned to the Elysians by FW. In the sections describing them in battle, they encounter stiff resistance at their target, take significant losses, yet still secure their objectives. Against the Tau follow on forces, which most likely outnumbered them and certainly possessed overwhelming firepower, they held onto their objective until wiped out to the man. Given the chance to surrender in the face of certain doom, they declined.
In my book that was enough to look into how to portray that in the list. I'm not saying it's necessarily the best mechanic, but it does provide the core infantry some ability to hang tough in the face of determined opposition. Once you get used to the mechanic, it's not that big a deal, but I do acknowledge that it's easy to leave out in early games.
As you get into games, you'll find that you really end up needing the Iron Discipline. You don't have all the fancy toys that a vanilla IG list has and if you are going to fight your battles with your core units, then they need to be around so that you can do that. Please do feel free to try some games without it and then with. I think you'll come to the same conclusion.
Demo charges improve their CC? Seriously, Demo Charges make it easier to fight infantry? That feels less like an abstraction and more the fevered dream of a madman ÂÂ
I guess I'm not really sure why you made that statement. Yes, it is an abstraction, however, the abstraction was based on observing the overall effectiveness of an Elysian squad of infantry in 40K battles. Toss a demo charge into an enemy squad, then rapid fire them. Toss a demo charge and then charge them. The end result is that you reduce the starting number of enemy, thus indirectly increasing their effectiveness.
When we originally looked at this mechanic, it went all over the map and at the end of the day after everyone was through expressing opinions, arguing and whatever, this worked out to be the most acceptable middle ground. Not everyone's favorite, but it was acceptable.
Strategy rating 2 seems very bad for an army supposedly all about rapid insertion, especially given that its the same asn the Steel Legion and Minervans. I think the Elysians deserve a 3, what's the point of being the fastest IG if you aren't really faster?
The feeling at the time was that they didn't deserve the boost. They are IG. IG come with a lot of baggage, not the least of which is logistics. So although once operational, they do have the ability to make lightning strikes, it does still have to get to that point. I yielded on this one and to be honest, although it would be nice if they were better, it hasn't been that big of a factor in any game I've seen or been in. In this case, I went with conventional wisdom.
All of them can teleport? Wouldn't this be better done with Planetfall and access to a Dominator or Mars class Cruiser full of Shark Assault boats? Everyone teleporting is way to good, and it requires a lower Strategy rating to even attempt to be balanced.
First off, teleporting (from the rule book) comes to closest to describing how the Elysians deploy. Keep in mind that they fly to the target, but the majority of them jump out of their Valkyries and use their grav chutes to make their way to the ground. Again, there was a lot of discussion on this, but in the end, teleport was the simplest way to get the effect.
As far as being too strong, keep in mind that EVERY unit in a teleporting formation must roll to see if they get a blast marker. With the sizes of the drop troop companies, it is very rare that you ever get away without blast markers and it is quite common to end up with two and sometime three. I've even had more.
So that means in any type of combat, you are already starting under the gun against a fresh formation. The effect of blast markers on your formations should not be underestimated.
Less Commisars is certainly a drawback, but it seems very un IG to go without them, the more you hate and don't need a Political Officer around the more of them you're liable to have after all. Is this difference supported in the fluff? If so I'll maintain that its silly, but at least its GW's official silliness.
I already have agreed that this needs to be corrected and it will be in the updated version.
I'm not real sure on what to make of Vets, they seem to be a wall of special abilities rather than a unit with a real purpose.
Yes, it is a different kind of unit. It does have a role and I think that is what should be focused on. If you look at what their capabilities are, that might help you see where they fit in.
Aircraft, Wow, just wow, the range on the Lightning's autocannon is way too good, and the Lightning Strike is clearly a Fighter-Bomber, why doesn't it have a speed of Fighter-Bomber?
The range of the Lightnings "autocannon" comes from the fact that it isn't the standard "autocannon" that most IG units field. It is the same gun that a Hydra fields, hence the gun statistics. Not saying that it's a 100% right as currently stat'd, but it is consistent with existing weaponry. If it ends up needing to be toned down because it is overpowering, then we can discuss that after playtesting has taken place.
As far as the Strike version is concerned, there's no way to win on this one. If you make it a FB, then you get grief from the purists who say, after I fire my missiles it's no different than a regular lightning, so why isn't it a fighter. I made the ruling that it would just fight in a  similar fashion as an F-15E Strike Fighter and left it as you see it. As it has reduced AA values, I think an equitable middle ground has been reached. More playtesting will validate that...or we'll fix it.
I disagree with the Marauder Destroyer's stats on several levels:
Fixed forward autocannons should have AA
and where do those Assault Cannons come from, if its from the Forgeworld Model the regular Marauder has the same guns with lascannons instead of autocannons and it only gets 2 twin Heavy bolters. Over gunning them is just more rules creep, aircraft in Epic are always undergunned compared to what the model shows in other lists, not doing it here just leads me to wonder why the other IG don't bother to use those guns
I will just start this part off by saying that the Marauder Destroyer is a controversial aircraft. What you see is what I decided based on lots of opinions, mapping abilities and weapons to the 40K version, as well as blending and toning the official FW rules (IA3) for this aircraft WAY down.
I will also freely admit to never having fielded one in a game, I've never had enough points left over to consider using one. It seems expensive, even though it is nasty. So it could be way off base. We'll just have to test that out. It was not intentionally overgunned, in fact I fiddled with it quite a bit to get it to this point.
However, before you decide to whack off it's wings with a machete, it needs to be tried out. Keep in mind other lists have super heavy tanks, artillery, titans, heavy infantry, all kinds of stuff that can give the Elysians a very hard time on the battlefield. It seemed reasonable that they had some sort of counter for those, besides the Vulture, and this is what came to mind.
Now on to your list:
I'm confused on the Upgrades, are they for any of the core formations or just for the Formation called Drop Troop Company?
After, looking at the text again, I can see where it might be confusing. I'll work to fix that as part of the upgrade.
Also, the Storm Troopers can Teleport but Valkyries can't so can you leave them behind or is the ability worthless since Valkyries aren't optional?
That verbiage was copied directly from the IG list. I agree it is a bit confusing so it can be adjusted to make it clearer.
Elysian drop troops
Companies
Regimental HQ  325 (Commissar 1)
Storm Trooper Company 350 (Commissar 2)
Storm Trooper Company 350 (Commissar 3)
Drop Troop Company + 2 Vets 275 (Commissar 4)
Drop Troop Company + Vets 250 (Commissar 5)
Support
Drop Sentinel Squadron 125 (Commissar 6)
Drop Sentinel Squadron 125
Drop Sentinel Squadron 125
Drop Sentinel Squadron 125
Support Sentinel Squadron 125
Support Sentinel Squadron 125
Support Sentinel Squadron 125
Support Sentinel Squadron 125
Navy
Lightning Fighter 225
Lightning Fighter 225
3000 points, 15 activations
EDIT My first impression is that this list needs alot of activations for its maneuverability to matter, but its many small formations will be killed off fast so they need to really think ahead and possibly not teleport at all turn 1 and let the Sentinels run about then pick a target or two and drop the whole army on them with the sentinels in support positions.
I'd say that is a pretty decent list. You'll get a better feel for it after it has been in a couple of games. The list does seem a bit light in the way of infantry and it will be interesting to see if you feel you got your money's worth out of all those sentinels. Also, it will be interesting to see how you do at taking objectives and then holding them.
What no Marauder Destroyer? Surely it's the super weapon that will ensure victory for the Emperor's troops.
Actually, what this points out is the same thing I ran into which is I could never figure out a way to get the MD in a list where it didn't weaken the list because of its cost. In larger games (I've never played the Elysians at larger than 3500 pts) the MD will be more affordable, but then the means to counteract it as well as the ability to dilute its effects become easier to accomplish as well. So we'll just have to see.
Cheers,
_________________
Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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