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Support Craft/LOS
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:52 pm 
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You can't hit what you cant see. It'd be ridiculous to play it otherwise.


Then Morays and Mantas are, as you say, ridiculous ; The wording of the rules is crystal clear, you can never block LoF to a Support Craft unless you're not on the table (In reserve).

Personally, I'd far prefer that the 'Support Craft' rule be replaced with something like 'Support Craft count as Skimmers that are always 'popped up''... at least that way you could hide from them (Or hide them) occasionally, due to the 2008 Skimmer Revision.


I would say that Support Craft as well as Aircraft can target units more than 10 cm into a terrain feature.We have to remeber that they are not targeting the units from ground level but from high up so their attacks wouldn't be going through more than 10cm of terrain but only a few cm from their attack level.

Indeed, Support Craft operate more like popped up Skimmers did before the 2008 rules update, they pop up into low orbit and place some shots at units hiding behind a skyscraper 75cm away...




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Dobbsy:  Support craft and aircraft have full LoS to anything on the board.  It's just one of the dozens of not-quite-realistic abstractions in the air rules.

===

On a separate note, I like the "always popped up skimmer" idea for Support Craft LoS.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 pm 
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But it would be a bit more 'representational' and a bit less abstract...

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scarik
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:48 pm 
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'always popped up' also has the advantage of being something already in the rules, go simplicity!

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Chroma
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2008, 05:04 )

You can't hit what you cant see. It'd be ridiculous to play it otherwise. 10cm of cover is big chunk of distance in game scale. Try seeing/shooting through 500m of Concrete or wood.  Likewise, looking the other way on the two-way rifle range....

Yes, "10cm" of woods is a big deal when you're on the same level as the target... but the support craft/aircraft are looking "down" on the target... are there 10cm of woods straight up?

The target would still get the -1 to being hit for being in cover, but I think they would be targetable.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 07 Jul. 2008, 15:24 )

Always popped up skimmers seem interesting. Not quite the "Independence Day" feel on it though.

Are Morays as big around as a major city?  If not, they're just floating dinner plates, no need to call in Will Smith...

/AH HELL NAW!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm 
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Are Morays as big around as a major city?


A Manta is only as big as a football pitch, so a Moray is presumably no bigger than... a Baneblade? (Same DC, less armour)

Hardly Independence Day... and neither (Rather small) craft seems deserving of such a powerful (Always ignores LOF restrictions) and abstract (They'd need to be in low orbit to shoot over buildings and hit the troops behind them) ability.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:07 pm 
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"You did NOT shoot that green s--t at me!"

I suggest leaving it alone.  The ignores LOS works both ways and I think it is unrealistic to think of these support craft as hiding behind a building.

:disagree: The always popped up thing can get a little goofy too.  If you have a Support Craft that is next to a building 6cm tall shooting northward on a target on the table, an enemy unit attacking it from a perpendicular angle with a 15cm tall building in its way now has its LOS blocked.  So it is blocked to one and not the other?  Goofy.  You could say that it counts as always popped up above ALL terrain but then you might as well make it an aircraft (thus the rule).  The support craft threads are long and tedious but I don't see anything presented above that hasn't been suggested before.  I tried for weeks to come up with a better solution and just couldn't.  Some things are just better left abstracted IMO.

Besides, I don't hear anyone fielding Shadowswords in cover behind buildings complaining. Anyone?  Anyone?  Nope, didn't think so. :sus:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:15 pm 
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goofy


I find the current support craft rule extremely goofy, and quite a bit gamey to boot, especially when applied to the Moray and Manta.

Both craft would be distant specks in the high atmosphere, in order to see over buildings at the kind of acute angels they are apparently cabable of*.


*A Manta shoots at a tank 75cm away behind a 15cm tall building. A quick check of the maths tells you the Manta needs to be a mile above the ground in order to see the target... yet every indication we have of the Manta in the background leads us to believe they when in combat situations they operate at low altitudes at slow speeds, indeed the rules largely reinforce that, in allowing troops to embark or disembark from the Manta at will (Implying that it is operating at heights above the ground of a few hundred metres, not a mile or more).

The current Support Craft rule, as applied to the Manta and Moray, is a fudge.


I think it is unrealistic to think of these support craft as hiding behind a building.

Why?

A Moray is the size of a Baneblade, and it'd be hard *not* to hide it behind buildings if operating in one of Earth's cities at heights of 100-200 metres, let alone amongst the monolithic towers of the 41st millenium.

The Manta's model is large enough that it's likely to always be seen anyway, though it might sometimes claim -1 to-hit for being obscured by buildings between it and attacking formations.


Indeed you'd get some cool 'reverse shadow' effects, whereby a Leman Russ that was close to a wood (10cm away) wouldn't be able to see a Manta on the other side (15cm away) as it would be closer to the wood than the Manta...
... A Leman Russ that was further away(45cm) would be able to see the looming Manta above the wood.


The best bit?

All of the above is already covered by the 'counts as an always popped-up skimmer' ; A whole new tactical dimention is opened up whereby the Tau need to actually manuever occasionally in order to gain LOF to their enemies, instead of just Advancing / Sustaining until turn 3.




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Mephiston
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Lets face it not so long ago all skimmers had this god like ability. I don't see this as a real problem, they can shoot you and you can shoot them.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 07 Jul. 2008, 16:25 )

Lets face it not so long ago all skimmers had this god like ability. I don't see this as a real problem, they can shoot you and you can shoot them.

But it's silly.  :p

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:32 pm 
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Why?


Because I just do...  :rock: I can disagree if I want to.  See?  Just did. :p

The current RAW is abstract, that's all.  I don't understand the reviling against this particular rule when there are dozens of other abstractions in the game that are perfectly acceptable.

The current skimmer rules
Ranges (your personal favorite abstraction)
Movement
Aircraft Rules in general
Cover (just one example is troops in cover when on overwatch... Now THAT is goofy)
Blocking LOS (why does a Baneblade block LOS but not a Land Raider?)
Terrain (why 10cm?  Why not 5cm for some terrain and 20 for others?)
Casualties
Etc...

There are undoubtedly many more.  My point is that the rule as it is works fine and in many cases works against the support craft more often than for it.  It sounds like your big beef is with the Moray in particular in which case the debate should be whether it is deserves the Support Craft description, is costed appropriately, etc.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:35 pm 
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The current skimmer rules


Note that I'm in favour of
    'Popped up skimmers may rise up to 15cm above the tabletop... detirmine LOF through the use of a laser pointer suspended 15cm above the tabletop, if you so desire'
    as I think it'd be less 2d.

I'm not sure that TRChris would agree that it's a good idea though.  :cool:

Ranges (your personal favorite abstraction)

Ah yeah I forgot about that... that means that a Manta firing 75cm over a building would have to be somewhere in low orbit in order to hit its target... yet still would be low enough to the ground to pick up troops in the next activation...  :devil:

I dislike the Support Craft rule for the Manta/Moray for several reasons, all of which are pretty obvious I guess.

It sounds like your big beef is with the Moray in particular

I have enough beef against the Moray to make a cow.  :))




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Support Craft/LOS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Yes, "10cm" of woods is a big deal when you're on the same level as the target... but the support craft/aircraft are looking "down" on the target... are there 10cm of woods straight up?

It's not just woods we're talking about here Chroma. This is terrain in general. We could have a massive building in this equation. Buildings have roofs.... And who's to say how tall the canopy of the woods we're playing with actually are? Most players I know never actually put trees on the their wood sections because they get in the way.

I don't understand the reviling against this particular rule when there are dozens of other abstractions in the game that are perfectly acceptable.

Perhaps because those rules actually make more sense...?? Perhaps because people actually get tired of reviling in silence? Who can tell?  :;): Perhaps because this rule could be better written? Now there's a thought! A better written rule for Epic. We all have a dream - that's mine  :laugh:

Why should there be a block on re-writing the Support Craft rule? We've re-written rules before. Heck I'm not talking a massive change just a line on the current that mentions the 10cm-in rule from the main LOS rules
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