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Thunderhawk Transporter

 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Guys

There seem to be two points at issue here. IMO the main problem is the number of vehicles that the THT is able to carry:- 1x LR is not sufficient while allowing 2x LR or 2x "others" seems equally wrong. Limited vehicle transport capacity means you need more THTs, but 4x THT in a single formation also seems excessive - are you really saying that you want to be able to carry the equivalent of 4x Tactical companies into the same point??! I cannot envisage any Marine commander needing to do that. More importantly, I cannot imagine people wanting to pay for 4x FW THT to be able to achieve this

IMHO the stats in the original post capture the feel that Soren was trying to convey of a weaker armed more vulnerable transport. But that said you are still likely to need more than one in a single formation if you want to bring in sufficient vehicles. IMHO, the drop in price from 200 -> 150 seemed more justified than effectively halving the cost to 112.5 as Hena suggests - especially if the number of Vehicles carried is increased as Lord =I= and I propose.

Perhaps an alternative might be to price for one THT and permit upgrades, so 150 for each THT (and I will bet you don't ever see four of the beasts in a single formation).

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Well 4 Thunderhawk Transporters have 8DC with 4+RA :D And the chance that critical hits will wipe out the whole Detachment they are carrying is very low ;)

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Well, no... normal Space Marine Chapters typically operate at the Company level or above. It makes sense having a lander that can carry a sizable number of troops. Grey Knights, should they need to deploy large numbers ... can just use more thunderhawk transporters. Teleportation is all well and good but it doesn't get vehicles onto the ground.

In any case, the decision to not give Grey Knights landing craft was early on in the list development. I'm not too sure what you're trying to pursuade me of here...

There also seems to be the thought that THTs are not used for "hot" landings. I'm not sure why not - why wouldn't it be used in a similar fashion to the gunship? If anything, a THT could potentially deploy it's marine forces faster than the gunship - already in their vehicles too.


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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:49 pm 
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I don't see why you're saying:

- Grey Knights don't use Landing Craft because their forces are too small.

and then are coming back to say:

- Thunderhawk Transporters aren't big enough for Grey Knights.


Just allow them to have Landing Craft. :)


Did you ever finish that Grey Knights-only army list?

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:04 am 
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Yeeeeahhh... does sound a little odd put that way... It makes sense in my head. But they're still not having Landing Craft. When I wrote the list they simply didn't have any way of landing armour. The THTs came later and I'm quite happy with them now as an option, for the reasons I've given and also because it is one of the things that makes the Grey Knights distinct from the Deathwatch.

No, I never seem to finish anything these days. I need to find some time to update everything, starting with the EC list.


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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:02 pm 
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But your waepons are 2x twinlinked (denfence mount), which would make them AA4+? Or do I miss something?

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:24 pm 
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I've mostly ignored the Thawk Transport, but since I've been looking over the BT list to figure out my next playtest army, I started paying more attention to it.

I'm at a loss as to what it's role is supposed to be.  A formation of them is more flexible with respect to what vehicles it can carry (mixing LRs and Rhino chassis) but aside from that I really think the LC is just as good or better.

At the most comparable formation size, 3 transports, there's no contest.  The LC is more durable.  Even counting the occasional freak critical result, it's still ahead.  Sure, one crit destroys the entire formation instead of 1/2 or 1/3, but with better armor, there will be fewer hits that roll for crits.  Losing 1/3 of the formation is awfully bad when you've already committed to the assault (AA fire coming after the approach move).  2 AA hits has almost a 30% chance of taking out a THT and 1/3 of the formation with it, but very little chance of taking out an LC.  4 AA hits would be extremely rare, but the chances of that taking out 1/3 or more of the THTs is 60% while the chance of taking out the LC is about 25%.

Aside from mixing vehicle chassis, the LC can carry the same amount or more and can carry a wider variety of formations and units (except for an oddity with a Thawk Transport/LRC combo carrying more Terminators).

Even when you only need 2 THTs to transport the formation, the LC looks pretty darn good.  It costs 125 points more but it's vastly tougher and has better FF and CC.  If it's being used for a FF air assault, you can put the LC out front to use it's 4+RA armor to take the first hits.  If used for CC it has better barging capabilities.  And, of course, after the assault it's better for close air support than the THTs.  It looks to me like there's a good chance it's worth the point difference even if you're bringing it in partially full.

As I've been looking over the lists and putting together theoretical armies, I simply haven't found many situations where I would choose to use the THTs over the LCs.  There are a couple, but they are definitely "fringe" kinds of formations.

I'll try to give some examples later.

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:53 pm 
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They should make the Landing Craft model more expensive so that way people are more prone to purchasing Thunderhawks instead.  Ooops!  They already did that.  Okay, I'm out of ideas.

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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:33 pm 
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To fill in a bit over lunch hour...

THTs can't transport a lot of units, as anything that doesn't fit into a Rhino or LR is out.  No bikes, assault marines or dreads.  It's also inefficient at transporting non-transport armor as you lose the "russian doll" transport capacity.  The only things they will normally be good for is a mix of infantry and transports.  Add to that the point value issue with a formation of 3 THTs where the LC is superior for the points.  3 THTs could technically transport a larger formation with mixed LRs and Rhino chassis, but I'd rather tweak the formations to fit the LC.

Basically, you get to a fairly limited set of requirements that allow THTs to possibly be better:

1) Transported formation is infantry with Rhinos/Razorbacks/LRs for ground transport.
2)  Transported formation has no more than 4 Rhino chassis, 2 LR or some combination of those.

So... what does that leave?

From Scions:
Tactical formation w/o vehicle upgrades
Heavy Tacticals w/o vehicle upgrades
Terminators in LRCs

From Templars:
Crusaders or Bretheren w/ 1 Razorback or Hunter upgrade
Crusaders or Bretheren w/ 1-2 LR
Terminators in LRCs

To be sure, those formations are good.  They could do some nice fire-oriented maneuvers rather than just the standard air assault (e.g. end of turn land and fire, beginning of turn Sustained Fire).  However, it still seems like a pretty narrow niche.

From Pulsar's post on the BT thread:
Sword Brethren (normal or terminator both work) with a chaplain and the EC and two land raider crusaders = 625 (or 650 for termies)

and then put them in two T-hawk transporters

You're right.  I looked at that.  It's nasty, but it's also 875 or 900 points.

To give an idea of another option that I looked at in a similar point range, for 925 points, you could take 8 bikes, 4 assault, and 2 Chaplains in a Landing Craft.  Total average hits are comparable in mostly CC and better in FF (in which the LC can also lead with its 4+RA armor), comparable armor values, better deployment options for air assault (jump packs), more units, 2 fast ground formations once they split up after the initial assault instead of 1 ground formation that's dependent on its transport, and better post-assault strafing out of the LC and a better capability for an aircraft-only air assault if that's necessary.  As icing on the cake, the LC will probably be a better option for picking up wounded formations later in the game for the patented Biggles Turn 3 air assault because it can carry more diverse units and the chances of a formation still having both LRs and Rhinos in it (the only LC restriction) would be reduced.

The Bretheren would have a token ranged fire ability.  Comparing to termie Bretheren might be better or worse than the Tacs, depending on the situation.

For a few more points, I'll take the LC load.  The advantages are more than worth it, imho.


The point is not to hash out Black Templar options, though.  I was just illustrating that there are options for loading the LC that are cheaper than options for the THT, which eventually leads to better overall value.

In the Scions list, the options for loading air assaults are notably fewer and one of them, the bikes, are increased in point cost on a per-unit basis.  In addition, the Scions are more focused on ranged fire and land-and-fire options for ground attack should be more common.  It's the list that makes the THT viable because it excludes a lot of things that would make Thawks or LCs better.

===

Since I never came to a point in that long ramble...

It seems to me THT have no unique tactical niche.  The gap between what a normal Thawk and a LC can do is too narrow.  They primarily fill a stylistic role.  Even if they are balanced, their use is going to depend heavily on the army list  they are in.





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 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:56 pm 
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Hena:  I'll go back and add the Termie/LRC option to my post as you are correct that is a pretty good option.  But hopefully I've made the point.  THTs are good for a very specific role that simply won't fit a lot of SM lists.

As far as cost, I think 100 points each with 5+RA would be fair.  Looking at 300 points for 3 THTs versus 375 for a Landing Craft is enough of a difference in points and capabilities to make the THTs look appealing, especially in a list with formations tailored to their use.





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