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[Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:43 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 03 2008,13:26)
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im done with this thread, way too annoying. chroma i have yet to hear a valid reason why the three to two change, but your right in that one can use any list one wants.

Here's the core reason: Strategy Rating 5 is very good and needs to be paid for in some manner. ?Would you rather have all your formations increased in cost by 10-15 points? ?Would you rather have the SR5 reduced to the "standard" Eldar SR4?

i will probably just go back to using beltan at this point.
?to bad tho, i too was a real fan of ulthwe fluff and would have liked to see an usable army list.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding your complaint at the list not being "usable" as you already agreed that the "example" army you wanted to make above is completely doable with the 1 Warhost/2 Troupes limitation, so what's your new complaint?

If you're a "real fan of ulthwe fluff" then you should be *pro*-many Guardians, as that, and Pyskers, is what they are known for. ?Give Support Weapons and War Walkers, Black Guardians can make a *very* shooty formation coming out of a gate. ?With Wave Serpents they're an excellent fire support formation.

And you don't *have* to take Black Guardians, you can take the "regular" ones for 150 points a pop if you wish to keep costs down.

Lastly, this is to Fenvarien, if you pick four "Guardian" formations in your army, because of the rounding up rules, *two* of them can be Black Guardians, so that would be two regular and two Black if you so desired.

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Fenvarien
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:14 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 03 2008,13:43)
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Lastly, this is to Fenvarien, if you pick four "Guardian" formations in your army, because of the rounding up rules, *two* of them can be Black Guardians, so that would be two regular and two Black if you so desired.


Yes, I know, but I think this is not very fluffy. As you can see here, you can - under certain circumstances - have half of your Guardians at black status. Much better would be - at least in my opinion - to allow not more then a third of your Guardian formations to be fielded as Black Guardians, but these beeing really worth to be taken. Wasn?t that originally intended?

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Nice to see others on a same side of a river too. :)

I still have issues with newest ulthwe, they are minor and don't ruin the list even though they add too much restrictions and ulthwe armies look quite similar all the time.

Eldar update 1.8 really hurts 2 troupes thing alot. Because good air coverage now needs a lot of troupes/nightwings. I'd really like to return to swords that have two firestorms and allow shields have none. A lot better that way. And I really don't like mandatory titans... they are so important to get survivable bts and now they are even better with leader...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:39 pm 
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As far as taking 3 Guardian hosts at 3000 points instead of just 2 - I don't understand why that is a problem.  It's the most Guardian-heavy craftworld.  It's also a variant list, not the "core" list.  It should be more limited and focused than the Biel-Tan/Generic Eldar list.

Personally, I'd argue that the v1.8 changes made a massive improvement in the flexibility of this list.  Buying the best ground AA in the game in 175 point blocks is phenomenally useful.  Heck, it's so good you can afford to buy a Host just to get the troupe slots for Shields formations.  The troupe restriction addresses both the previous perceptions of imbalance/added flexibility and the increase from v1.8.

Just to pick on Illuvitar's preferred style of army list, the difference is:

old - 2 hosts + 6 troupes, 2 of which were Falcon troupes for AA
new - 3 hosts + 6 troupes, 2 of which are Shields troupes for AA

Changing 2 Falcon troupes for 1 Host and 2 Shield troupes seems like a pretty minor difference.  Personally, I can't imagine how 2 Falcon troupes would be better than Guardian/Shields, let alone something to abandon the list over.


Is 450-800 points of Guardians in a 3000 point army excessive?  If so, in what way?  What is a reasonable level for a Guardian heavy craftworld?

Is a balance issue (e.g. the army's not competitive with 3 Guardian hosts)?  If so, what causes the problems?

Is it a style issue (e.g. the army's not viable with a play style that it could previously use)?  If so, why is that style appropriate/inappropriate to Ulthwe craftworld?

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:51 pm 
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Chroma is right. You get your heck SR5 and your I1+ nearly for free. Exept mourning about minor tweaks in the list, tell me, how much is this worth for you. I say, much more points than it is now.

And to quote JJ again and again:
An army list defines itself over what it HAS NOT.

Just get your super warlock titan, some further FF units and watch enemy armies breaking in the second round after retaining three formations. If you cannot see this, your fault, have seen this several times and it works against nearly every army.

It get?s really boring reading always the same complaints again and again.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:23 pm 
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i know i said i was done here ... but :)
As far as taking 3 Guardian hosts at 3000 points instead of just 2 - I don't understand why that is a problem.  It's the most Guardian-heavy craftworld.  It's also a variant list, not the "core" list.  It should be more limited and focused than the Biel-Tan/Generic Eldar list.

 i like the ulthwe craft world, i liked playing with the old list especially with 1.8 changes.
 if the people who play this list and want to use it think its not fun to play anymore than its not useable. now i know charad playes ulthwe, ive seen his figs. Soren, you like the new list, do you play ulthwe ? neal is this your favorite craft world ?
 i never said i though the list was broken by the update , my point was the two troupe per warhost means i cant field the units i want, and FAR more importantly have already painted.
 so anyway like i said, i dont like it. i really wish we wouldnt change the basic composition of army lists this late in development , just wanted to let chroma know.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:43 pm 
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if the people who play this list and want to use it think its not fun to play anymore than its not useable.


I understand that.

My questions are aimed at figuring out why you think it's not fun.  I am struggling to understand the complaint.  I could be wrong, but I think Chroma is as well.  It's impossible to fairly assess a complaint that you don't understand, let alone craft some sort of compromise.

I looked at your preferred style of army as described above and I could hit nearly everything you mentioned (Black Guardians, 2 Mech aspects, Vampire, Firestorms/Falcons, EoV, no titans or aircraft required) for ~2500 points, with a decent number of activations and spare troupe slot, leaving the remaining points for additional upgrades or formations or whatever.  The only thing from the list of wants which was not included was limiting the army to just 2 Guardian formations.

What are the units that you want to field, which are now excluded?  What is the important part of that style - what defines it?  Why is the (seemingly minor) reorganization such a large impact on that army?  Is it adding another Guardian host that makes it so unpalatable?  If so, why is it important to you to take a minimum number of Guardians for Ulthwe?

===

To answer your questions about army lists used, I'm split on the kind of Eldar I like.  I like heavy Aspect armies, so that's Biel Tan, but I also like heavy psyker armies and lots of infantry, so that's Ulthwe.  I can't say either one is my "favorite" but for me they are both well ahead of the other craftworlds as far as my affinity for them.  I have ~15,000 points of Eldar troupes and I have them painted so that I can field them with either army list (2 color Guardians, 2 color bikes for the now-defunct BG bike formations, etc.).

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:52 pm 
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i painted 6 gaurdian squads , 6 four stand aspect troupes and 12 other troupes. so why should i be happy about the change ?
thats all the reason i need right there
point 2 there is no good reason to make the change. the change is because black gaurdians have to good activation why force someone to take more gaurdians ? if the 5+ strategy is to high , make it 4+ like the other eldar. ( i do anyway)
and if you really believe it dosnt change the flexibilty of the army enough where i would find it less fun to play, why do you think it should stay 2 ? reason for 2? if we arnt saying this limits the army why are we doing it, and if it does limit the army why dont we understand what i mean ? yall cant have it both ways.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:34 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 05 2008,21:52)
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i point 2 there is no good reason to make the change. the change is because black gaurdians have to good activation why force someone to take more gaurdians ? if the 5+ strategy is to high , make it 4+ like the other eldar. ( i do anyway)

If you're not using the SR5 for your army and not using Black Guardians, why not just use the Biel-Tan list and say you're using an "Ulthwe on the Warpath" army?  What are you using from the Ulthwe list then, just the Seer Council?

and if you really believe it dosnt change the flexibilty of the army enough where i would find it less fun to play, why do you think it should stay 2 ? reason for 2? if we arnt saying this limits the army why are we doing it, and if it does limit the army why dont we understand what i mean ? yall cant have it both ways.

It *does* change the flexibility of the army, that's the *point*! ?

The "take as much as you want" Eldar army list is the Biel-Tan one, and it can stand in for any other Craftworld to represent them on a "total war" footing; all the other Craftworld list have limitations and/or restrictions, or altered formations, again, that's the point.

You said you can't play the army you want with this list, yet when I posted an army that represented what you were asking for, you still somehow said you can't do it... so, now, how can you have it both ways? ? :)

I understand that you're concerned illuvitar, but I still don't get what you're concerned *about*! ?Show me an army you played in the older version of the list that you can't do in this list, which seems to be your complaint, and then I might be able to understand.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:58 pm 
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If you're not using the SR5 for your army and not using Black Guardians, why not just use the Biel-Tan list and say you're using an "Ulthwe on the Warpath" army? ?What are you using from the Ulthwe list then, just the Seer Council?

i meant sr 4+, because it's an easy handycap for my opponent, who loses alot no matter what i play :)
(edit, let me clarify this so it dosnt sound so pompous :), i paint all armies and scenery and then go out and find someone to play and make them pick which list they want. then assign myself a handycap, none of my opponents being very experienced wargamers)
It *does* change the flexibility of the army, that's the *point*! ?
o.k. then it is too much. you already limit the number of aspects now you say must take more gaurdians. result if you want any aspect at all, for 3000 pt army, you will have too much infantry I.M.H.O.

You said you can't play the army you want with this list, yet when I posted an army that represented what you were asking for, you still somehow said you can't do it... so, now, how can you have it both ways? ? ?
no you didnt. what im asking for is the ability to make up the same armies as ive been playing. i liked the list and painted figs for it then it was changed. thats lame.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:33 am 
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(illuvitar @ Feb. 05 2008,22:58)
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no you didnt. what im asking for is the ability to make up the same armies as ive been playing. i liked the list and painted figs for it then it was changed. thats lame.

Query: can you make your "old" armies with the Biel-Tan list, or very close at least, sans Seer Council?

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illuvitar
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:11 am 
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no, but once again i can make the armies i want with the new uthwe list vertion 3.me which will be three troupes per host, anybody that dosnt like it can play somewhere else. :)
i really do like the rest of the list, i think a lot of the changes are small and do a good job of addressing most of the balance complaints ive read on the boards.
 i really didn't want to get in a big argument about this, and i can't give such an argument the time it deserves right now. my points where
A) i thought changing the basic make up of the list at this late date was a dirty trick
B) i dont see the need, if it only makes a list less flexible. if the ulthwe list wasnt already different enough for everybody why was it already in the vault ?
 so with that i hope ive clarified my reasons for dislikeing the two troupes per. rule, leave it there for all i care i just wanted to put my two cents in even if it was too late.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Hey guys,

Am I understanding correctly that the new idea is to roll the Ulthwe list into a fan-supplement that includes the forces that fought in Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade?

If that is the case, I was wondering if we could go ahead and attach the "Spear of Khaine" to the Avatar. All it would do is make the Ulthwe Avatar the same as the Beil-tan one, with the CotYK name replaced by the "Spear of Khaine." It's basically just a retinue of warlocks intead of exarchs.

No change in abilities intended, just keeping that MW +1EA that the retinue provides. This suggestion was shot down a long time ago by JJ, but if we're now specifically basing the Ulthwe list off of the 13th Crusade, then it might be okay now.

Like everything else I post, nothing that's really necessary, just a random suggestion that would help prevent forgetful players like me how the Avatar works in this list.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:57 pm 
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(semajnollissor @ Jun. 03 2008,13:46)
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If that is the case, I was wondering if we could go ahead and attach the "Spear of Khaine" to the Avatar. All it would do is make the Ulthwe Avatar the same as the Beil-tan one, with the CotYK name replaced by the "Spear of Khaine." It's basically just a retinue of warlocks intead of exarchs.

I've defintely thought about it, but set nothing in motion in that regard (And have actually modelled my Avatar that way!).

It's in the "to be considered" file.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:10 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 03 2008,07:57)
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...and have actually modelled my Avatar that way...

Heh, yeah, I bought a few extra Avatar boxes to get more exarchs, meaning I have more Avatars than I need. I figure I'll eventually use them as craftworld specific, so the Ulthwe one will have warlocks, the Iyanden one with have wraithguard, etc. Not necessarily for any in-game effect, but just because they are there.
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