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Tournament List Mods
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:55 pm 
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Presumably the principle is that a points change affects only your army list (i.e. you just need to know about your point changes in order to write your list). You don't need to pay attention to the other list changes - if you know what each unit does in the Black Legion, then the tournament mods aren't going to spring any surprises.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:00 am 
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Indeed.

Note that this approach does not preclude introducing / stripping out units through the use of the army list (For example adding a Chaos Vindicator would be easy), but Matt wants the unit stats themselves to stay set in stone.

Which is a pity, cos some are broken.




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:00 am 
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Well, there are two things here: the tournament list mods and the full review.

Here's the Chaos mods, which are still under discussion:

Army list changes:
  • Remove Obliterators upgrade option from Chosen
  • Add the Assault Company to the Chaos Titan Legion War Engine box
  • Greater Daemons reduced to 7 summoning points
  • Ravager titan reduced to 625 points
  • Raptors increased to 40 points each
Unit changes:
  • Daemon Prince:
    Remove Titan Killer (1) from both weapons, but add Inspiring to the unit Notes.
  • Dreadnought
    Upgrade to Armour 3+
  • Predator
    Upgrade to FF4+
  • Decimator
    Remove Ignore Cover from the Decimator Cannon.
  • Feral Titan:
    Remove Macro Weapon from the Hellmouth weapon.

The above changes such as the Decimator and Feral issues could be "patched" with a points value adjustment. The stats could then be changed for the full review.

Note that I'm distinguishing between the tournament "patch" and a full review. For a full review, the unit datafaxes absolutely must be fair game - the root issues cannot be addressed on points values alone.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:20 am 
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For a full review, the unit datafaxes absolutely must be fair game


I don't think Matt wants to see stat changes, ever.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:20 am 
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While I understand Matts point, I think that it will be almost impossible to avoid any kind of stat change. I agree that the stat changes should really be the last thing considered, something that force org and points changes simply cant fix, but I think that we will simply have to make some stat changes at some point.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:31 am 
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or indirect deathstrikes


I don't think he even wants to see something like this changed... then again, his tournaments allow Commissars to ride in Titans too AFAIK. :D

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:15 am 
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As E&C has said I don't think Matt will move with the Tac Comms community. There are some changes to the core rules allready in effect at UK tournaments (half the remaining units in a formation must be in the enemy half to deny defend the line for example), but comisars riding in Titans is normally covered in sportsmanship :)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:30 am 
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comisars riding in Titans is normally covered in sportsmanship


Joe was astonished on Friday when I told him I was putting my last Commissar in a Sentinel instead of a Warhound Titan! :D


There are some changes to the core rules allready in effect at UK tournaments (half the remaining units in a formation must be in the enemy half to deny defend the line for example)

Indeed, that is a little odd.



@Cybershadow
While I understand Matts point, I think that it will be almost impossible to avoid any kind of stat change.

It depends on the list I think.

For example, with some creative list management, the Space Marines could be fully balanced through the use of points changes.

On the other hand, the Black Legion is basically a lost cause at that point... the internal balance problems that ensure that all competative lists look basically alike will be impossible to fix.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Based on the UK tourney scene thread, I'm posting an example of the kinds of "minimalist" changes I had intended for a tourney mods project.  This isn't to say anyone has to stick with my suggestions, just that it seems I have not effectively communicated my intent - a bare-bones "just knock off the high bits" approach.  If something's controversial, drop it.  If a point change is controversial, go with only part of it.
===

Imperial support:
Marauders 250
Single Warhounds 275 (pair is still 500)

SMs:
Preds 275
LRs 350
Vindis 225 or 250
LC 375
Termies 350
Pred Destructor 4+FF

Scars:
SM changes as applicable
Bike formation 375

IG:
Deathstrikes get IDF

Siege IF:
Point changes per TRC.  Leave all formations and stat changes off.

Orks:
Supastompas 275
Stompamob 225/400/575

Freeks:
Outriders 150/250/350
Fort mobs 275/475/ 675

Ferals:
Junkas 175/300/NA
No FF from Trukks (mostly for consistency w/ Freeks)

Eldar:
None

BL:
Raptors 40 points (could be dropped)
Obliterators 85 points
Ferals 325
Ravager 625
Assault company to WE/Air
DP changes TK to MW

L&D:
None

===

As you can see, the only army with more than one unit or formation change is the BL.  Everything could fit into a reasonably sized text box on an advertisement flier.  Nothing should require any sort of explanation to someone looking at it "cold" so to speak.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:18 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 28 2008,20:39)
QUOTE
Imperial support:
Marauders 250
Single Warhounds 275 (pair is still 500)

IG:
Deathstrikes get IDF

Siege IF:
Point changes per TRC.  Leave all formations and stat changes off.

Speaking just from the Imperial perspective the only points to add I would have are.

IG
Baneblades would still be awful. For such a signature unit to be so uncompetative is a great shame.

Siege
The two real problems with the siege list were infantry and arty batteries. If not going for the balancing through reversing the formations composition (going from the most 'competitve' choice of batteries and emplacements/companies and transports to the enforced batteries and transports and companies and emplacements) you then have to jiggle further with the points (+25 for batteries probably), but all that does is force you to take a more extreme version of the same list with the 'padding' stripped out.

Navy
Marauders at 250 still suck without going to 3bp, the 75% drop in firepower from losing one is just to much.

Otherwise yeah sure :) (And this - DS, Baneblade, and Marauder points and bombs - matching the proposed IG minimal changes are pure coincidence :) - note to be honest I doubt the warhound change is needed for Guard)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:20 am 
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In this I would say that 5cm speed for Vindicator and FF4+ for LR is needed. Vindicator then could be dropped less in points to 275.


Vindicator at 275pts will always be worthless, even your 4-mod proposed stats for Vindicators would only look semi-useful to me at 250... and even then they lose out to a Warhound (Even if the Warhound is at 275).

Seriously, 225 is the *maximum* you need to be looking at for Vindicators.


Notice though that no one actually was against any of the marine changes, except to say that they weren't enough (which then doesn't mean that it's ok). So that fits into "no contested changes" mentality.

I've chatted to quite a few of the UK tourney players... I promise you there's opposition. :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:28 am 
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Uhhh, I think it'd be much better if we could simply hear from the tourney players, I don't want to put words into people's mouths when I can only remember a few names. :)

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