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Dark Eldar Updated

 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:48 pm 
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FYI the 200 price is back on.  From the previous thread (from I don't know when - March?) I explained that the changes were being removed.  

That being said, the 25 point difference is very small and I don't see it making an argument for the Dark Eldar suddenly being overpowered.

Magarch, what do you have to support your claims about the special rule?  How many games have you played with this list and the Fleet of Foot rule (presumably what you are calling the Raider rule)?  What armies were they against?  How many points?  What was the outcome of the games?  Were they Grand Tournament rules?

This information would be helpful.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:58 pm 
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(Moscovian @ May 12 2008,12:48)
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How many games have you played with this list and the Fleet of Foot rule (presumably what you are calling the Raider rule)?

By the "Raider rule", I believe he is refering to the ability to shoot/firefight from inside a raider.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:13 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 12 2008,12:58)
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By the "Raider rule", I believe he is refering to the ability to shoot/firefight from inside a raider.

Yes, that's exactly the one I talk about. Do you have actually really play with it ? It's very nasty, I just tell you this. One of my opponents love to play a World Eater army...Well he just hates me now.  :D But then, I agree, it's very very specific. Still, it can be horrible against some specialized formations...and even Terminators aren't very joyfull when they try to assault a stupid Syndicate formation all transported on their Raiders, 'cause their plenty of Macro Weapon CC attacks are suddenly useless while it doesn't affect at all the firefight the warriors can shoot. With the 4+ Armor of the Raiders, even if it is Light Vehicle, you have quite a chance to survive without too many losses. In fact, warriors have more chances to survive if they stay aboard !

Even if it is destroyed, well it was just a Syndicate formation. It's not like it's very expensive, after all.






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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Ah, okay, now I understand. In that case, Magarch, I think you are way off and here is why:

The Dark Eldar are going to be doing either one of two things the majority of the time and they are doubling or assaulting.  If doubling, your troops can offload, fire, get back on, and move under the Eldar hit-n-run rules, so staying in the Raider doesn't add anything.  It doesn't protect you from overwatch, or dangerous terrain, these things would apply as normal whether the Warriors are inside or outside of the Raider.

When assaulting, the vast majority of time you will want to be outside of your Raider because a single hit to a Raider has a 50% chance of taking out three units (the Raider itself and the two occupants).

There are only small areas of opportunity where the 'Raider' rule really help.  
1. When engaging troops that only have close combat ability.  Bear in mind that if there is supporting fire you can still be shot at unless you can wipe out the enemy entirely.

2. When you are already loaded and within range of firing upon the enemy.  You could at this point with your HnR shoot then move or double.

3. When assaulting a formation that is a slam dunk kill (2 or so units).

4. When you are offloaded and want to make a single move-shoot.

All of this is of course mitigated by the short range of the Dark Eldar Warrior weapons (15cm max).  Perhaps you are confusing your own rules of adding an extra weapon to the Warrior stands?  If this were the case I could see it 'maybe' getting out of hand.  Maybe.

So why have the rule at all?  Because Raiders stink, for one.  They're only real advantage is the ability to fire from 'within' the vehicle.  Honestly this is an ability that should be given to any light vehicle transport (how many LV transports are there anyway?).  But for another it matches the fluff and feel of the Dark Eldar.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:03 pm 
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(Moscovian @ May 12 2008,13:30)
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The Dark Eldar are going to be doing either one of two things the majority of the time and they are doubling or assaulting.  If doubling, your troops can offload, fire, get back on, and move under the Eldar hit-n-run rules, so staying in the Raider doesn't add anything.  It doesn't protect you from overwatch, or dangerous terrain, these things would apply as normal whether the Warriors are inside or outside of the Raider.

Oh that, I know very well. Dangerous terrain, to be honest, is quite easy to avoid with the Antigrav rule. And if the opponent is heavily fortified, it's not really wise to send the transported syndicate against them. Overwatch is a huge trouble, though - but then, it's the best answer against all eldars, that is. Still, an ennemy on Overwatch is stuck with it and that means it can't advance on your own objectives. You can play on this as well and makes it turn against your opponent.

Well, of course, that doesn't work very well with very long range weapons...Good thing they're not seen everywhere in all the armies.  :D


When assaulting, the vast majority of time you will want to be outside of your Raider because a single hit to a Raider has a 50% chance of taking out three units (the Raider itself and the two occupants).


Depends. After all, transported warriors can use a cover save of 6+ to survive to the crash. In some situations, it can be much more interesting to use the 4+ Armor rather than disembarking "nude" warriors that'll get killed anyway by the first hit.

Yes, it's all about luck, but then it can work. Then there is the most important thing about "basic" syndicate formations...


1. When engaging troops that only have close combat ability.  Bear in mind that if there is supporting fire you can still be shot at unless you can wipe out the enemy entirely.


That's where their number can play for them. Transported Syndicate means you can just play with the 3 raiders and still use your full firefight power. That's an important thing to keep in mind ; it means it's easier to avoid having too much firefight in answer, since you have much less units to place (to put ? not sure about the word, sorry). That's the same with small eldar formations ; they can move more easily and the opponent has to stick close together if they want a real support. Not really a trouble with numerous armies like Ork or Imperial Guard, but that's not the same with Space Marines, Chaos or even Eldars.

You can even allow yourself to attack big slow formations with a decent Firefight to just a part of it, so that even with countercharge move it won't be able to use its massive firefight potential against you. Then the 4+ Armor of your Raiders can be enough to avoid serious losses. Yes, it's all about luck as well...But then, luck smiles to the Dark Eldars erm I mean audacious.


2. When you are already loaded and within range of firing upon the enemy.  You could at this point with your HnR shoot then move or double.


You can, yes. But then, as you said, warrior's firepower isn't really what you could call impressive. It's much more interesting to use that nice FF 4+, and then use the Hit and Run part for Assault to use the 35 speed of the Raiders to hide back behind a cover. If you had to disembark to use their full firefight power, then you wouldn't be able to use that so nice 35 cm speed. Another big advantage of the Raider special rule.


4. When you are offloaded and want to make a single move-shoot.


Sorry, I didn't understand that one.


All of this is of course mitigated by the short range of the Dark Eldar Warrior weapons (15cm max).  Perhaps you are confusing your own rules of adding an extra weapon to the Warrior stands?  If this were the case I could see it 'maybe' getting out of hand.  Maybe.


That's why in my own list, the Transport rule of Raiders is the same as in the rulebook. No special case for them.  :D


So why have the rule at all?  Because Raiders stink, for one.  They're only real advantage is the ability to fire from 'within' the vehicle.  Honestly this is an ability that should be given to any light vehicle transport (how many LV transports are there anyway?).  But for another it matches the fluff and feel of the Dark Eldar.


In fact, that's not a special rule for Dark Eldar in the W40k system game and that's why it's so strange. The Tranport rule in Epic is different for a good reason, after all. Making an exception for Dark Eldars can be quite tricky, especially when combined with the other special rules. It's not just a rule on its own, but the whole combined set that makes the Raider, to my eyes, one of the best units of the Dark Eldars. It doesn't "stink" at all, to me ; it's even one of their greatest strengths.






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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:40 pm 
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Well, I still don't see them being deadly the way you describe them.  I still haven't seen any detailed descriptions of actual situations that have occurred.  Even if they have, it would be the first time in over two years that I've ever heard of the Dark Eldar being a power list.  It would be the first time EVER.  Not that I don't believe you, but I need more than a few vague posts to counter the dozens of playtests conducted by myself, Charad, Rug, Xisor, Scarik, Tarrisvaal, etc. that show this special rule and the list in general to be well balanced.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:55 pm 
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(Moscovian @ May 12 2008,15:40)
QUOTE
Well, I still don't see them being deadly the way you describe them.  I still haven't seen any detailed descriptions of actual situations that have occurred.  Even if they have, it would be the first time in over two years that I've ever heard of the Dark Eldar being a power list.  It would be the first time EVER.  Not that I don't believe you, but I need more than a few vague posts to counter the dozens of playtests conducted by myself, Charad, Rug, Xisor, Scarik, Tarrisvaal, etc. that show this special rule and the list in general to be well balanced.

Come on, I didn't say Dark Eldars are a power list.  :D

And no, it's not deadly - I just said it was nasty, that all. About the games, well sorry I didn't make dozens with your list for now, so I'm just giving my point of view about it. I know, I should have made the reports here...Will try to for the next ones (even if I'm very uneasy with English when doing so).


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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:01 pm 
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For the record, I didn't mean to imply anything looked overpowered.  It looks about right to me - fragile but with lots of annoying, tricksy stuff.

I still think Raiders look solidly in the 15-20 point range, though.

Compared to Chimeras, LV, but better armor so they are slightly weaker (maybe 70% as durable).  Similar firepower but shorter range, so again a little bit weaker (also about 70% as a rough guess).  Faster, with Skimmer, the option to stay mounted, and a better SR and initiative (usually).  That all adds up to about 75-80% of the price of a Chimera, or about 19-20 points.

Compared to Rhinos, same armor comparison, about 3-4x the firepower, and the same movement advantages, but with worse SR.  That comes out to about 16-18 points.

Also, if you ballpark 3 Raiders at 50 points (16.67 pts ea), that puts the Warriors at either 21 or 25 points (depending on whether the formation is 175 or 200), which looks about right versus Guardians to me as well.

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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:13 pm 
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Magarch, your English is very good and in many respects better than some members here for which it is their native tongue. :p ?Bring the data and I will listen.

Hena, the final copy has the 200 points. ?Somehow the 175 got transferred on the Beta - this is the same errored list that was missing the Dracon. ?All should be fine now though. ?If it isn't let me know.

Neal, don't apologize for anything.  Perhaps I am undervaluing the Raiders and overvaluing the Warriors, but the formation as a whole should be well priced.





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 Post subject: Dark Eldar Updated
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:35 pm 
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Hey, I forgot to report back.  We played the scenario with the amphibious tanks and the two Dark Eldar forces trying to escape the ambushing reinforcements.

It played pretty cool.  As it was, we, the Dark Eldar, lost by about 50% (something like 1100 points to 1700) but it was definitely fun.  The DE are pretty darn fast, but a SHT company will evaporate an entire formation.  We started with a massive activation count advantage but before it was over we were scrambling to try to get stuff off the board faster than it was killed.

I didn't find the Raiders to be especially fragile.  In fact, most of the formations ended up with more transport spots than infantry to transport.  Typical was losing 2-3 infantry for each Raider.  I think that's good, as it means the army stays fast.

It has potential for a mega-activation count.  Even being forced to take an Executor and a Barge in the scenario we had 10 (iirc) activations at 3000 points, plus the Beast.  13-14 would be feasible even with a SC and enough upgrades to make sure there's only a single BTS.  With the high costs for upgrades, the list seems to push play in that direction.  Sure, they're paper thin, but they can all place BMs and all support even on March.  I suspect it's not out of whack but it could be nasty to someone not expecting it.

The three of us all liked the list with respect to the feel and, at least within the scenario we played, everything seemed balanced.  The parts of the list we didn't use look okay in theoryhammer.

So, in summary, we had some questions about a few bits (mostly upgrade costs) but overall, 3 thumbs up from the guys I was playing with.

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