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Emperor's Children discussion
Drugo
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:34 am 
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I noticed that Emperor's Children lesser d?mons cost 20, while in the Death Guard cost 25... it's intended?

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:02 am 
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Hi Lord I,

I mis-interpreted a statement that you made with the proposed changes from the last version to this. If it is to be 6 then so be it. Not sure if I want to pay 200pts plus transport for the formation, and I can't explain why just a feeling.

Fearless Rhinos for Legionnaires should not be allowed, instead of the transport option just put in may add 3 rhinos (Standard not EC) for 50pts.

Will give Bikes ago.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:46 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 10 2008,23:49)
QUOTE
Rpr: If you ignore the First Strike/Ignore Cover, FF 2x5+ is roughly equivlalent to FF 4+. I wouldn't say it's better, even including the First Strike, than FF3+. So I reckon that 2x5+ is a downgrade from the previous FF3+ rules. Up to you, let me know what you playtest. I can simply put the bikers the way they were, I was perhaps a little overzealous in sticking in doom sirens all over the place.

2x FF5+ is average 4 hits with 6 attacking units (2*1/3*6)
1x FF3+ is average 4 hits with 6 attacking units (2/3*6)

Thus, 2x FF5+ is better than FF3+ if the second attack has extra stuff.

I give these a go, but I think that it would have been sufficient just to adjust points, debaser and predator and SR and leave it that way - now this doom siren change is so drastic that "play-testing must be started all over again" =]
(and althought it might be confusing for some people, I'd prefer that "doom siren modify basic FF to become IC+FS" instead of extra attack and reverting FF for those units with doom sirens - downgrading FF to allow extra FF has funny side-effects with characters =)

Of the legionnaires: I have a gut feeling that they should cost like 200 with non-fearless transport. 250 is too much. 225-230 might go.
200 + 25 points for 3 non-fearless rhinos could be fine (or 30 as it normally is)
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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:18 pm 
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When thinking about these formations of 6 and especially of the terminators + land raiders - hefty 1000+ points...

What about having formation sized truly as 6 with transport?

Thus, for terminators:
Replace 3 terminators with 3 slaanesh land raiders: +0 pts

Similarily, it could be continued for Havocs like:
Replace 2 havoc units with 2 slaanesh land raiders: +75 pts

Legionnaires could be..
4 legionnaires + 2 rhinos: 150 pts. Replace 2 rhinos with 2 legionnaires: +50

(I might not change retinue or havoc rhinos..)

This would also help with 'too many fearkess units' dialemma. ANd face it, having havocs as 350, then taking tarsnport -> 400, then chaging those to land raiders and you are starting to have over 600 point formations again... no one would be doing that.


(moreover, Terminators without transport could have choice to replace 0-2 terminators with Obliterators to get more AA coverage.. in BL costs that would be +0 apiece, but more balanced could be +25 apiece)
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:51 pm 
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That is a very interesting idea.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:01 pm 
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So I gave a second thought for this idea and here it is:

Sacred Six EC

In this version, every formation is sized 6 (except navy/titans of course!). If you end with any other sized formation, there was a bug somewhere...  In addition to having the sacred 6 as formation size always, it also gets rid of possible "too big fearless formation" problem and also helps a bit in activation thing, allowing more flexibility in army composition. It also helps with low anti-AT as it makes Land Raiders a bit more accessable.

The 2.1 list is used except for the infantry changes, below.
Effectually there is no more Daemon Engine, Transport, Dreadnoughts and Land Raider updates available anymore to any detachment.

Legionnaires (150 pts): 4 CSM (with scout) units   AND
 + 2 Rhinos (free - these are normal non-fearless rhinos)  OR
 + 2 CSM (with scout) (+50 pts)

Retinue (225 pts): 4 noise marines with 1 lord upgrade  AND
 + 2 EC Rhinos (free)  OR
 + 2 EC Land Raiders (+150)  OR
 + 2 Noise Marines (+50). If this is selected, up to 3
     Noise Marines can be changed to Dreadnoughts (+10 each)
     and/or Defilers/Debasers (+35 each)

Havoc Company (275 pts): 4 havoc noise marines with 1 lord upgrade  AND
 + 2 EC Rhinos (free)  OR
 + 2 EC Land Raiders (+150)  OR
 + 2 Havoc Noise Marines (+75).  If this is selected, up to 3
     Havoc Noise Marines can be changed to Dreadnoughts (free)  
     and/or Defilers/Debasers (+25 each)

0-2 Terminator Retinues (500 pts): 3 EC terminators with 1 lord upgrade  AND
 + 3 EC Land Raiders (free)  OR
 + 3 EC Terminators. Up to 3 Terminators can be replaced with
     Defiler or Debaser for no cost.


Daemon Engine Pack, Daemon Knights, Bikes, Armoured Company and Raptor Cult stay as they were in 2.1  (except that Armoured Company cannot take Daemon Engines upgrade anymore as there is no such upgrade)
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:30 pm 
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The 6 unit switch idea is quite novel.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Looks interesting. I like the idea behind this and looks easy to use too :)

And how about naming the Emperors Children typical term for "formation" like some word from Orchestras or other musiccalterms?

Partitura, Symphonicon (or Discordion),etc come to mind.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:37 pm 
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If we were going to hit the musical theme then we shopuld be looking a multiples of 8 surely.

I'll have a play with this, but we might end up with too many lords and a bit popcorn in fashion.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:24 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Apr. 15 2008,18:37)
QUOTE
I'll have a play with this, but we might end up with too many lords and a bit popcorn in fashion.

Maybe. But Chaos seems to have lords and popcorn is like in Space Marine list...
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Ginger
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:34 pm 
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While I like the idea greatly, I am with Tim on the pop-corn army here:- consider
1x retinue (BTS) - - - - - - - - 225
13x legionaires with summon daemon (2275)
2x Legionaires (300)
Daemon pool (200)

So, 16 activations, all formations with Fearless Rhinos (which is the key), and all highly mobile. The intention being to mass up numbers of formations in support of assaults (which have very respectable stats) and use the Daemons as meat shields / supports where needed to bolster the attacks). Wear down the opposition over most of the game, and grab objectives with the remaining Fearless Rhinos.

Fighting this will be like swatting persistent midges - very unpleasant. :p

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:55 pm 
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(Ginger @ Apr. 15 2008,19:34)
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So, 16 activations, all formations with Fearless Rhinos (which is the key), and all highly mobile.

In that case I would not be worried, as Legionnaire rhinos are non-fearless as especially stated above...

(but otherwise, there could be some limitations to legionnaires like in BL list if the problem is the cheap formation with daemonic focus. Or just do not allow them to take it anymore)
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Ginger
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:06 pm 
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(rpr @ Apr. 15 2008,17:24)
QUOTE

(Tiny-Tim @ Apr. 15 2008,18:37)
QUOTE
I'll have a play with this, but we might end up with too many lords and a bit popcorn in fashion.

Maybe. But Chaos seems to have lords and popcorn is like in Space Marine list...

. . . . . but not with the same stats. The "legionaire" CSM is much better than the SM scout, has a Fearless Rhino, and potentially daemons for added protection as well, and all for a similar price!! (and, yes I am considering TSKNF!)

I think Lord=I= has the cost much closer with 250 for 6x Legionaires, +50 for transport, because they compare pretty closely with the SM tacticals. So here, if we do a bit of straight maths, I would suggest they would be 200 for 4x legionaires with transport.

(and this would dramatically reduce the pop-corn army I just posted to something like 11 - 12 activations)

=============================
Edit - I missed the non-fearless Rhinos;  :blush:  however, even so I would suggest this could cause problems distinguishing them from "Fearless" Rhinos in other formations  :)  - and the rest of the comments still stand regarding the general stats




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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:13 pm 
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(Ginger @ Apr. 15 2008,20:06)
QUOTE
I think Lord=I= has the cost much closer with 250 for 6x Legionaires, +50 for transport, because they compare pretty closely with the SM tacticals. So here, if we do a bit of straight maths, I would suggest they would be 200 for 4x legionaires with transport.

Yes, if they still would be fearless...

Edit - I missed the non-fearless Rhinos;  :blush:  however, even so I would suggest this could cause problems distinguishing them from "Fearless" Rhinos in other formations  :)  - and the rest of the comments still stand regarding the general stats

How so? The entire formation is non-fearless, so it is very easy to distinguish.

I'm comparing them now as they are non-fearless to Forlorn Hope, which is 125 points for 4. Add 2 rhinos and 150 seems okay to me.

You are obviously still thinking them as fearless...

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Emperor's Children discussion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:05 am 
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Before I give a more detailed reply, what precisely is the issue with giving scout units Fearless rhinos (as they won't have Scout themselves)?

I can put non-Fearless rhinos in the list, and it's a bit odd that way around true, but it requires more complexity in the list and much more potential for confusion (you can bet if we have two different types of rhino people are going to be deploying fearless rhinos with their scouts and non-fearless ones elsewhere).
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