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Anti-Tau tactics?
Onyx
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:09 am 
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I was hoping I could ask some questions on other players experinces with Tau in Epic Armageddon?

Specifically I have questions on Markerlights Sentry Groups. Are they used every game? How many are typically taken? I have been using them at 1 Markerlight group per 1000pts (3000pt games). How do your opponents deal with them? Ignore them and where the consequences, kill them all and then risk allowing the Tau formations time to get into better positions? Something else?

I've played several games with Tau now and everyone who's played against them has had a real hard time (the games are usually decided by the end of the 2nd turn). Now I'm in no way saying I'm a great player but the Tau army hasn't looked like losing against 2 different opponents (using Marines and I.G.). I'd like to help my fellow players with some advice as they don't seem to want to ask anyone...

I can see obvious tactics that should be used (eg. assaults when possible) but I wondered if you could share your experiences and your opponents tactics. I really want to use this army but my opponents are getting quite fed up with them!
I'll post a BatRep up soon of our latest game.

Thanks for any help you can give and for your time.




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Onyx
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:25 am 
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Thanks Hena.

I'm not really asking about units with Markerlights as much about Markerlight Sentry groups and I'm not really after Tau tactics but Anti-Tau ones.

We played a game yesterday and the I.G. (Minervan) army had 2 Vultures formations, garrisoned on OW and 36 Leman Russ (including varients). It was all over by the end of the 2nd turn. The Tau had 3 ScorpionFish so there was quite a bit of MW.

Thunderhawks would have been thrashed trying to assault a Tau army with 3 Scorpionfish and another Skyray aswell...

Any other ideas to repel the Tau? I love my Tau army but at the moment its not much fun to play (or play against).

This is why I'm asking about Markerlight Sentry Groups. Do experienced players take the time to kill them or do they just ignore them?




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Onyx
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:03 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 23 2008,15:34)
QUOTE

(Onyx @ Mar. 23 2008,10:25)
QUOTE
Thunderhawks would have been thrashed trying to assault a Tau army with 3 Scorpionfish and another Skyray aswell...

How come? They generate 8 AA 4+ shots (assuming that all get to fire). Of those 4 should hit and 1 should go through the armour (that's the average anyway). Against those odds, I have had no problem going in. Though suppressing or breaking one and hitting to other side can easily drop the amount of AA half.

Thanks again for replying Hena.

Of course you then have blast markers on the Thunderhawk and that doesn't help with following assaults/activations etc.
Anyway we'll move on.

I'm not really interested in getting into a thunderhawk/Skyray bebate, more in finding out what opponents of Tau armies with Markerlights Groups do to deal with them. As I've already said, there are a few obvious tactics that should be used against Tau in general. I'm aware of these and understand them.

I'm the Tau player so I'm obviously not the one with the problem. I'm also not in favour of "If you find that you cannot win against them, try to change the rules so that they are a one formation". I'd far rather know what Tau opponents do in this situation under the present conditions first.

My opponents seem hell-bent on killing all the Markerlight Sentries to begin with but that just gives the Tau plenty of time to move up into the 75cm range and rain death down. It doesn't seem to work at all to me but they all defiantly proclaim that leaving the Markerlight Sentries untouched is suicide...

I keep telling them that if they kill the weapons platforms then the Markerlights are useless, but they aren't hearing me. Maybe if I can show them other players experiences they might listen (or maybe there is something I haven't figured out yet aswell).

My regular opponents (Mostly using I.G. and also a few Marines so far) are getting sick of Tau quickly but they're not adjusting their tactics very well. I'd like to try and help them by offering other players experiences.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:07 pm 
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Markerlights Sentry Groups. Are they used every game? How many are typically taken?


My regular opponent never uses these, and he's got the best win/loss record in my group bar our Black Legion player.

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Reddeth
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:50 pm 
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I've played a few games against the Tau now. The first few times I lost badly, but since then it is usually a very close game (the last one was decided by tie breaker). I still struggle beat them, but at least I now find it to be a fair fight. Some lessons I've learnt:

If he deploys makerlights in your half of the table then they are worth assaulting early on with some of your lighter formations (When using Chaos Marines I used Forlorn Hopes for this task). If he is sneaky and sets them up in his half of the table then I would tend to ignore them.

If you have artillery then use it to try and take out the Tau scout units/screens first, then high value targets (for my chaos marines these are usually the stingrays or anything with a markerlight). Your air units are best used on CAP or stiking Tau units outside the AA coverage. The Tau air units are generally pretty good so I favour a battle of attrition strategy against them. Don't waltz your bombers into his army on turn one and expect them to make it back home safely.
Also watch out for the Tau ignore cover weapons if you use a lot of infantry. A formation of stingrays can do horrendous damage to infantry moving through heavy cover.

Stall as much as you can early in the first turn by activating light formations. Put figthers up on CAP, move cautiously forward with expendable formations, use artillery if you have it, never retain at this stage. You want to make the Tau player activate the majority of his army so you can set it up for a counter attack.

If all goes well near the end of the first turn you can move you main assault formations into positions from which they can assault the main Tau formations in turn 2. March mech infantry right up to the enemy. Set up several assaults for next turn, the more the better. You may suffer heavy losses getting into position. Don't let this stop you, keep going or you are doomed! Hopefully all his heavy hitters have activated before you move. Don't advance slowly and try and exchange ranged fire with the Tau - you will only lose this way. Move fast towards your targets, marching if it's safe to do so.

In turn 2 you need to assault the Tau hard, if you do enough damage then they will start to fall apart. If you have teleporting formations then they should be brought on now to help with the erradication of high value Tau targets. Hopefully you can win the strategy roll, then pick the biggest assaults and play them out. Now is the time to retain if possible and go in for the kill. Once all the possible assaults are played out then bring in supporting formations to help with whatever victory goals you are going to try for in turn 3.

I usually find that by turn 3 you must totally focus on the victory goals. Hopefully you did enough damage to the TAU in turn 2 that you already have BTS. Move towards their Blitz and take and hold if possible. Defend you own Blitz with something reasonably strong, the Tau may struggle to take it at this point if they have taken heavy losses. Don't worry about defend to flag or they shall not pass, you want to focus on offensive strategy and get into the Tau half of the battlefield.

By turn three you will probably find your have taken heavy casualties. This is normal when playing the Tau, you will lose a lot of guys before you get to grips with them. The main Tau weakness if their performance in assault, exploit this as much as you can and you should beat them.

Good luck!
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Jstr19
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:06 pm 
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In my opinion the Tau ML and Guided missile horde is one of the most powerful army builds in the game. With ML drones, Stealthsuits, Pirhana's and Tetras running about back up by aircraft and Scorpionfish it is very hard for opponents to deal with. I have only used this sort of build once and the game ended partway through the second turn. I don't know how opponents can deal with it.

The problem I see is just how cheap pirhana's and tetra's are. 175 points and 150 points for a fast units and in the pirhana's case with essentially indirect fire weapons with an effective range of 185cm at AT5+ almost all the time. The enemy never seems to get close enough to them to be able to deal with them especially if you do the Tau thing of dropping stealth suits on him to give him targets that must be dealt with and destroying his transport vehicles. It is even often not possible to beat them in an artillery duel as Morays and scorpionfish can outgun and out range almost anything.

My vision of this sort of army includes.
3 crisis teams for cheap activations and irritation value
1 barracuda squadron
2 Morays
2 Broadside teams deployed on overwatch
then as many ML Drones Scorpionfish, Pirhana's and Tetras  as the points and slots allow. about 750 points worth.

I don't know how to beat it without using nids.
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Onyx
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:02 am 
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Thanks for the replies guys, excellent information (especially that breakdown of turn tactics Reddeth).

Much appreciated!

I'll share this info with my opponents and see what happens next game.

Anymore anti-Tau tactics out there?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:40 am 
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Two observations here:-

Firstly, do you have sufficient terrain on the table? You really should be looking to 12 pieces on the usual 6'x4' table, resulting in around 30-40% coverage (while I understand about the IC weapons, this still helps a lot).

Also, though I have never played against any Tau, I wondered whether the Marines had used much planetfalling armies and how they fared? This strategy obviously avoids both the markerlight question and the AA, and puts the Marines straight into grips with the enemy. Note much depends on placement of objectives, the placement of drop zones etc and above all on the timing of the attacks.

However, I would have thought a Drop army with several terminator formations supported by the ubiquitous Warhounds, Landspeeders and Thunderbolts would do reasonably well. But I would also warn that this kind of assault seems to go heavily one way or the other - rarely ending in a narrow victory for either side :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:44 am 
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However, I would have thought a Drop army with several terminator formations supported by the ubiquitous Warhounds, Landspeeders and Thunderbolts would do reasonably well.


You'd think that, but a couple of problems work against you:

- It is literally impossible to close combat a Tau army (They are all either skimmers or have access to jetpacks and so simply hop back when you charge them) if your infantry all move 15cm (As a drop podding or teleporting army would do).

- Tau Firefight, although not stellar, is at least equal in potency to the IG (Lots of 5+ FF stats) if not slightly above in some situations (For example, Crisis formations tend to shred equal points' worth of Marines in a firefight, due to the MWFF shots).

Unless the Tau are clustered around your Deathwind strikes, a drop podding Marine army will just be cut down by the faster Tau.

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Jstr19
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:04 am 
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The concern I have about engaging Tau is similar to what E&C says. Though not really impossible it is very difficult if the Tau player has desiged his army to avoid engagements. E&C has played many games against my Tau and has had severe problems bringing them to bear. This was due to a number of reasons/ I snipped his transport vehicles with Morays and Broadsides on overwatch then I had built large crisis suit teams supported by stealth suits. Stealth suits have the scout rule so he had to be at least 10cm away then I jump back 10cm and more often than not I won the ensuing FF as he could bring little of his force to bear against a unit that had 3 first strike FF and 6 MW FF. It was also down to a relatively poor force match up. Tau seem to do very well against Guard, Orks and Eldar. Marines however because of and they shall know no fear and a 4+ AS cause me alot of problems. The drop army should work alright against Tau but it requires alot of planning to do well. Unless you take a Battlebarge it is not possible to drop sufficient marines to cover the board. Which makes it a guessing game of where your opponent will deploy. If you get in wrong you will be shot apart before getting close to the enemy. Also FW's on overwatch although IMO still not worth taking are potentially verry damaging 16 Ap5+ shots and then a 5+ FF.
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Reddeth
 Post subject: Anti-Tau tactics?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:17 am 
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Agree with E&C re the Tau FF values and the skimmer problem. I've usually played against Tau with Chaos Marines so its not so much of a problem as I usually have lots of 4+ FF. Using Guard it would be much more of a problem.
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