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What Will GW's Next Game Be?

 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:40 pm 
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Well I knew much of it was dramatized as the media will have a tendency to do. ?However, many of his exploits were documented by the UK Army and as usual, only years later can the truth and effects of those operations be fully understood. ?His march on Aquaba and raids on the Haj Railway happened, much beyond that much is still under scrutiny. And of course we know the Turks, did and don't treat their prisoners very well. ?Let there be no doubt he was an "Odd Bird" ...  Oh, yes, I read his book "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" in High School, but that was a long time ago. And most recently, the History Channel had two back to back programs on the subject, last month or so.  Very interesting and entertaining ...

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:27 pm 
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L-4,

His march on Aquaba and raids on the Haj Railway happened, much beyond that much is still under scrutiny. And of course we know the Turks, did and don't treat their prisoners very well. Let there be no doubt he was an "Odd Bird"...  
Oh, yes, I read his book "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" in High School, but that was a long time ago. And most recently, the History Channel had two back-to-back programs on the subject, last month or so. Very interesting and entertaining...


The sad part is that Lawrence has become a pop culture worship icon. Most of what has been written about him is hagiography.

Much of the popular British media doesn't know that he wasn't a strong supporter of the UK for most of his life. Hes poke out against it quite often in very unflattering terms.

The Aquaba amd Hej RR raids did happen, but there is now quite a bit of historical evidence that Lawrence might have had nothing or very little to do with it. Several books exist now that have debunked the myth.

Apart from history and reality, the film is wonderful from an artistic viewpoint even if the history is purely crock.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:48 pm 
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As I said, as time goes on more of the truth comes out ... however, I believe the operations are worth study, separating fact from fiction.  I look at historical operations from a mostly military standpoint.  Weapons and tactics used, overall mission, effect on the battle or campaign, etc.  I try to keep the politics off to the side. But it can't be ignored completely ...

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:34 pm 
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Hi!

Thats a good example on how "hollywood" can and does affect perceptions of the masses. Another was the film "Birth of a Nation" that depicted the Klu Klux Klan as a force of good and blacks as subhuman entities only interesting in raping white women. The perceptions granted by this film were so atricous that even Woodrow wilson said that what was depicted in the movie was "the truth". That movie threw back civil rights for about 50 years.

Movies, like books can and will be used as propaganda. Its up to us to evalute what the intent behind a media is.

Primarch

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:01 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 14 2003 Sep.,02:27)
Certainly there were equipment transfers- Me 109s, AT guns, light armour, MG42 etc .

Me-109s had to be bought as well as AT-guns, artillery and everything else. To my knowledge Finnish army never received anything for free from the Germans save a couple of (near obsolete) bombers.

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:06 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 13 2003 Sep.,22:40)
Did the Germans ever give them REAL military back up? I wonder if it would have made a difference.

Primarch

To the Finns or to the Russians? ?:;):

During Winter War Germany practiced "malevolent neutrality" towards Finland due to the Molotov-Rippentrop pact. For example, when Mussolini sent some fighter planes to Finland they were either stopped in Germany or denied transit, I don't remember which.

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:12 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 14 2003 Sep.,03:24)
Hi!

One of the things the russians got from their victory is a corridor of territory north of leningrad (maybe Mojarn will know) that made it harder for the germans to encircle it later. Had that war not taken place perhaps leningrad would have fallen since its northern flank would have been finnish territory and the germans could siege it easier.

So many "what if's" about WWII.

Primarch

The Karelian Isthmus (Karjalan kannas) was reconquered during the summer of 1941, that's why the (only) supply route to Leningrad was over Laatokka (Lake Ladoga).

One of the "excuses" father sunshine (Stalin) had for attacking Finland was that the border was too close to the Leningrad... :angry:

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:47 pm 
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Well, I'm glad you jumped in Mojarn, we wondered where you were ?! ?:D ?Sorry I spelled Finland with 2 "N" in my previous post. I type faster than I think and spelling was never one of my strengths ! :laugh: ?I edited it. Yes, the Finns never procured or were given that much from the Germans. I've seen pictures of Finns using German Assault Guns and even captured Russian armor, but as you said Finland was very much on it's own. And the world was a better place when Stalin died in '53. ?Too bad he died of natural causes, instead of a firey death by incediary bombs ... ?}:)

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:58 pm 
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Hi!

I wonder what impact on the later siege of leningrad would have had if the Karelian isthmus was still in Finnish territory?

Also, why didn't the germans launch a major offensive from Finland? They were allies by then (grudgingly, but allies).

Primarch

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:33 am 
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L-4 and Primarch,

A lady friend of mine published this review on Amazon of Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom."

Here's a link to her page:

Alyssa Lappen's Amazon Page

----------------------------

Oxford University published eight copies of Seven Pillars of Wisdom in 1922 (six still exist). Another 211 copies were published privately in 1926. A third limited run appeared in 1935. But the same year, Seven Pillars was reprinted at least four more times. Now, there have probably been dozens, if not hundreds of printings.

This particular volume reproduces the first book in the two-volume 1935 edition. It includes the most romanticized section of Lawrence's work, on the so-called Arab Revolt.

This work assured T. E. Lawrence a place in history as 'Lawrence of Arabia.' It is a military history, colorful epic and lyrical exploration of Lawrence's mind.

Nevertheless, it is largely fiction. As historian David From reports in A Peace to End All Peace, when poet and scholar Robert Graves proposed to describe the liberation of Damascus in a biography of Lawrence, the subject warned Graves, 'I was on thin ice when I wrote the Damascus chapter...'

Actually, the book's fame grew not from Lawrence?s own actions but from the work's indirect promotion by a less-than-honest reporter who sought fame and fortune for himself. Like modern reporters who sometimes play fast and loose with the facts to entertain readers or elevate themselves, Lowell Thomas in 1917 was a 25-year-old part-time Princeton instructor, a 'fledgling showman from Ohio who had knocked about North America in search of fame, fortune and adventure,' according to Fromkin. He then raised enough money to travel to Britain and the Middle East front as a World War I cameraman. The Lawrence of Arabia myth sprang from Thomas' coverage of the war, and his own fanciful creation, With Lawrence in Arabia.

A onetime junior officer in the Cairo Arab Bureau, Lawrence admitted that Seven Pillars of Wisdom included a false tale of Arab bravery to aggrandize followers of Sharif Hussein of Mecca and his son Feisal. Indeed, as early as 1918, reputable newsmen reported that the Australian Light Horse division liberated Damascus from Ottoman control, not Feisal's Arab troops, who marched in afterwards, for show.

By 1921, Fromkin writes, Winston Churchill was in charge of Britain's Arab policy in Mesopotamia and tapped John Evelyn Shuckburgh to head a new Middle East department and Foreign Office man Hubert Winthrop Young to assist him. They arranged transport and supplies for Feisal's Arab army, earning hearty endorsement from Churchill's Masterson Smith committee, which simultaneously took grave exception to T.E. Lawrence as a proposed Arab affairs adviser. The committee considered Lawrence 'not the kind of man fit to easily fit into any official machine.'

Fromkin reports that Lawrence was frequently insubordinate, went over his superiors and in 1920 publicly disparaged Britain's Arab policy in the London Sunday Times as being 'worse than the Turkish system.' He also accused Britain of killing 'a yearly average of 100 Arabs to maintain peace.' This was of course untrue.

Efraim and Inari Karsh write in Empires of the Sand that Lawrence's Damascus victory was 'less heroic' than he pretended. Feisal was 'engaged in an unabashed exercise in duplicity and none knew this better than Lawrence, who whole heartedly endorsed this illicit adventure and kept most of its contours hidden from his own superiors.' Yet Lawrence basked in Thomas' fabricated London limelight, attending at least five of the showman journalist's lectures.

As an unfortunate result of the Thomas and Lawrence subterfuge, the latter assumed an undeserved role in shaping the modern Middle East.

Bad enough, we suffer to this day the consequences of Lawrence's myth.

Worse, a new generation of readers seems to accept as gospel the Lawrence of Arabia myth that stemmed from Lowell Thomas' hype and Lawrence's own book. While few seem to know it, this was long ago debunked. Those who want to know what really happened should, at minimum, also consult the Karsh's Empires of the Sand and Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace.

--Alyssa A. Lappen

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:36 am 
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Wow, great stuff!

I have heard about a number of those incidents. And I don't doubt that all she said is true. And based on reports from British Officers and NCOs, that were there, the Irregular Arab Forces were of minimal use at best. And would come and go as they pleased.

Wow, an Arab Army of limited effectiveness... who would have thought! ?

Well, as I said as time goes on more research is done and more of the truth comes out. And yes, anyone who saw the movie, must see a lot of it is pure theater. The documentaries do a much better job, but even then, there is some speculation... ?

Good Stuff, Maksim... Thanks! ?:;):

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:28 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 15 2003 Sep.,15:58)
Hi!

I wonder what impact on the later siege of leningrad would have had if the Karelian isthmus was still in Finnish territory?

Um, it was. Like I said, Finnish army took it back in 1941. Then it was lost again in 1944. :{

Also, why didn't the germans launch a major offensive from Finland? They were allies by then (grudgingly, but allies).

Primarch


They did launch an offensive, but with totally insufficient force. Obviously they either didn't give much thought about the possibility of supplying Soviet Union through Murmansk or they thought the U-Boats could stop such efforts by themselves. Also, their main objectives were in the Russia proper, Finnish front was considered a sideshow of the Barbarossa.

In the continuation war the war in Northernmost Finland was the responsibility of AOK Norwegen. I don't have my sources at hand but IIRC they had about 3 mountain divisions, some independent tank battalions (equipped mostly with French tanks and older Panzers) and possibly some other troops. At least in 1941 there was one SS division there, the 6th (Nord), which BTW accounted itself very badly. The SS troops broke after encountering the first serious resistance and fled through Finnish lines screaming about an overwhelming Soviet attack. :laugh:

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:12 pm 
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Hi!

Excellent stuff Maksim. Its always interesting to see how a media can turn fiction into fact. Makes you wonder how many facts we take for granted that may not be so "factual".

Mojarn, sounds like the usual german short sightedness not exploiting the the opportunities of finland. Attacking Murmansk would have been real bad for the russians had it succeeded.

Then again had they given any thought I would have not attacked russia, instead pooled all the resuorces to take egypt and the middle east, thus having more oil than russia could give me any way.

In any event it would have been easier to attack the Caucasus through Turkey than the way they did it...  :;):

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:59 pm 
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Yes, 3 Mtn Div. and those Panzers is what I recall. And like North Africa everything was a side show compared to the Russian Front.  And a few times, I had read that had the Germans secured the Suez and surrounding area, the Turks may have come in on the Axis side. However, as in WWI, the Turks would have needed German "advisors" and probably some equipment support.  Great "what-if" scenario ?!  ???

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 Post subject: What Will GW's Next Game Be?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:08 pm 
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Hi!

A lot of "experts" I have read stuff through the years have thought that Germany's best move was to exploit North africa and the middle east.

Imagine is Rommel had the resources of Barbarossa to hit the british with. In short order he would be in Cairo. The old "palestine" had a heavy pro-nazi sentiment due to their hatred of the colonial powers of france and england, so occupying those lands would have been far easier than conquered europe. With that in hand Turkey would have thown in with Germany.

If Germany felt on taking Russia then, I think Russia would have been defeated easily since germany would have unlimited oil of the middle east, another front through the caucases denying Baku to the soviets. Stalingrad with a south front secure and all german forces to it would have fallen.

Not to metion this would all be 1943-44 so germans with veteran troops in tigers and panthers would have been hard to stop.

Then again, best things turned out as they did, I dont fancy speaking german...

Primarch

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