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Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:13 am 
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I really don't care. Show me a game where you where not be able to add another unit to reach the exact point limit and where this fact has cost you the game...

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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:00 am 
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(ragnarok @ Feb. 06 2008,21:29)
QUOTE
I've taken off my shoes and socks, but I still only have 20 digits.

This doesn't help me with all my 25pt units! Where do I get the extra 5 digits from? :p

Lets mix abacus ideology and available toes and fingers.  :;):

1 hand is enough to calculate 25..50..75..100 (you even have one digit for memory/odd bit)
10 toes can be used to calculate hundreds.
Leftover hand can count thousands.

There you have system to count till 6100+odd bit pts with division of 25pts.  :D (If you use odd bit as a carry bit you can double countable number to 12200pts.) After that you need help from single friend and then you can reach points so high that you cant ever field on battlefield.

If it is hard to memorize all those variables, you can take pencil and write those down on your skin.
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Niblebitzer
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:20 am 
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Lovely :)

I agree with the ease, that 25pts division gives to calculating points.

Then completely opposite, I disagree with rough division as it wont make difference to units stats when adding single unit upgrades to formations. Almost every unit would be either too cheap or too expencive if pure 25pts division would be used. Balancing 25pts division leads to many odd combinations.

Afterall why do we play with such a high number of points if division is 25pts. We could abstract 25pts to 1apt(abstracted point) and play tournament games of 120apts. We have been given enough points, why cant we use em in more accurate way?

Another question is if epic as it is an abstracted game of armies and fixed companies fighting each other, should it even matter if another side is few odd points short?
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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:51 am 
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I can count from 0 to 31 on one hand.

Binary rocks.

With two hands I can count up to 1023, which is enough for a small battle.

Add the toes in there and you can count up to 1048575....




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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:54 am 
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Divide every cost by 5 so we get nice 600 point tournament lists. Ork Nob, 7 points, Ork boy and optional grot, 5 points etc.

I have always found it strange to every unit cost something that is divideable by 5. If anything cant cost 24 points, we have no reasons (aside tradition) to keep things as they are...



But really, I have nothing against things to cost 35 or 45 or X*5 points. It is too limiting to try and make them exactly 25 points. U




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Crabowl
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:01 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 06 2008,18:45)
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Keeping values at 25 point denominations is ultimately going to lead to min-maxing a list moreso than the values of 40 or 35 or 65. ?Anyone who plays the Necron list has run into the problem where you have 35 points left and nothing to fill it with (there was a recent playtest that had just this very problem)

Sure it would've been possible to drop two immortals and get one more monolith if you want to optimise the list and wtfpwn even more. If you can't realise that the extra 5 points in that case were absolutely and totally meaningless you are even dumber than I thought. The reason why people want the 25 division is to make the army list building easier, thus allowing you to get to the fun part faster without having to figure out where to spend the remaining points and determine which choice is the best (hmm, sounds a lot like min-maxing). However, this mostly affects friendly games since there's plenty of time to min-max tournament lists and it makes no difference if it's done by 25, 10 or 5 point precision, but since most of my games are played outside tournaments I'd prefer army list were built on 25 points precision and it has nothing to do with learning to count like you're trying to suggest..

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:08 pm 
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you are even dumber than I thought.


This is known as an Ad Hominem attack, and is generally regarded as the basest method of debate.

I ignored the rest of your post.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:27 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 07 2008,11:08)
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you are even dumber than I thought.


This is known as an Ad Hominem attack, and is generally regarded as the basest method of debate.

I ignored the rest of your post.

and to chip in here- is something that this forum is thankfully free of.  People being nice to each other makes this pace a very pleasant community, unlike other GW forums I dont care to mention :;):

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Crabowl, there is a distinction between being over 5 points and under 35 points which I explained twice to you. ?I also explained that I agree it was a minor issue but its effects accumulated with other errors that you made in order to make your playtest worthless.

To show some distinction, Zombocom accurately played a series of Necron games, posted his opinions and facts, and it resulted in some serious discussion over point values including IMO a good point change solution (we'll see what the army champ thinks). ?

I am not sure why you are vehemently defending a Necron game that you played poorly and inaccurately BY YOURSELF when you can just let it go and play a new one that will hopefully prove your point. ?If you decide to, try using the point values I suggested (or Neal's suggestions at a minimum) as I think we're onto something.

EDIT- and to defend Crabowl's response I did poke some fun at him on the playtest thread with my "checkers" comment.  I personally could care less what he thinks of me but his response wasn't entirely unwarranted.   :blush:

And I apologize to anyone who actually took this thread seriously (although how that is possible is beyond me). ?It was meant tongue-in-cheek while also to generate some serious discussion over something that IMO needs to be cleared up. ?There are only two reasons to oppose non-25 point denominations.

1. Min-maxing argument. ?I think that has been cleared up here.
2. Ease of counting. ?Well, I've got 10 suggestions... ?:devil:




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Dave
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:52 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 06 2008,17:01)
QUOTE
Then why not just divide all the current point costs by 25? We won't have to count so high then, as our 3K lists will become 120 point lists and there won't be anymore wasted numbers.


Because for those army lists that don't work in 25 point increments (About half of the Epic lists), it's inconvinient to work in half points. :D

That was my point, we shouldn't confine to 25 point increments.  5 is pretty granular I think, and for some reason people find it easier than a 1 point granular system.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:54 pm 
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For what it's worth, I have no problems with non-25 point denominations. I honestly don't understand this adherence to 25 point increments, just like I don't understand GW's slavish adherence to the D6, but that's another discussion entirely.  :D




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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:56 pm 
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lollerdeboller :)

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Otterman
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:22 pm 

(blackhorizon @ Feb. 07 2008,08:56)
QUOTE
lollerdeboller :)

Ach! That's a horrible insult in Cherokee!

Just teasing.

And to throw in my own wargaming observations, there are problems with point cost ranges becoming too small, leaving no room for fine tuning.

For example, if we were to normalize on 25 point increment values (100, 125, etc.), then this is truly no different than dividing by 25, and the point ranges become small.

You expert players should decide what the lowest meaningful quanta is (5 points? 10 points?), then decide if you want to keep the inflated values (100, 105, 110, etc.) or go to a normalized value (20, 21, 22). Due to legacy, we should probably stick with inflated values and use the quanta as guidance for list development.
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:42 pm 
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oops. Sorry.... :)

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:27 pm 
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If this is going to turn into a serious thread...

As I see it, the problem is not 'to 25 point increment or not to 25 point increment'. I dont think that there is really any difference when it comes to a game. The problem is that the majority of lists are set up in this way. Adding a minority of lists which does not have this basis into a pool of those which do, creates a perceived inbalance, or at least a difference.

I dont mind if we go with 25 point fixed increments or not, but this should be a blanket decision across all lists.

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