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Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Any point-based list is going to allow min-maxing.

I find Hena's objection on the grounds of min-maxing to be nonsensical.

If he were to argue for the cause of abstraction and simplicity, then I might at least be able to find sympathy with his argument, if not agreement.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:54 pm 
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Copied from the Necron thread to counter Hena's min-maxing argument:

Lets imagine two simple army lists, each with four possible units, and a 100 point game...

First, an army list with four unit options of 25 points each.

In a 100 point game there are (4x4x4x4)=256 possible combinations of units.

Second, a list with 2 40 point units and 2 20 point units

Now there are 3 possible types of combinations to fill the full 100 points (40 + 40 + 20), (40 + 20 + 20 + 20) and (20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20).

so the total number of combinations is (2^3) + (2^4) + (2^5) = 8+16+32 = 56



It seems the list with the non standard 25 points costs has far less combinations available.


EDIT:

I realise this maths differenciates between (A A B) and (A B A) as seperate options.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:54 pm 
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His argument doesn't hold water because the frequency of the non-25 point denominations occur in relation to the 25 point ones.

If most Epic costs were in 20 point denominations then a 25 point unit would screw things up the same exact way.

Even with all this said, WHO CARES!?!  The vlaue of the game is set at 'X' points.  Whoever can get their army closer to this value is not cheating by any stretch.

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rpr
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:17 pm 
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I hate all those 35 and so costs mainly because there is not ENOUGH of them then and it makes min-maxing HARDER.

For example, in Ork list, there is some odd +35 costs scattered, but no other non-25-diviable. So, if I want to min-max at full extend, I need to take 5 of those +35 units.

If everything is diviable by 25, it is so much easier to use all the points =]
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:25 pm 
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Ahhh.. Rpr, I agree with you.  However being under 35 points on your list is a small price to pay for knowing that the units are priced appropriately, don't you think?

Besides, if Epic is truly a living game every player must accept the possibility that a formation or an upgrade is going to change over time.  We are, after all, fine tuning many of these lists and there are going to be formations that are overpriced at 200 and underpriced at 175.  

If everything is diviable by 25, it is so much easier to use all the points =]


Use #2.  Multiple permutations of your list are easy to cycle through within seconds on Army Builder or a spreadsheet.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:29 pm 
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I've taken off my shoes and socks, but I still only have 20 digits.

This doesn't help me with all my 25pt units! Where do I get the extra 5 digits from? :p

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:31 pm 
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See #5.  :;):

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:38 pm 
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If everything is diviable by 25, it is so much easier to use all the points =]


And that is part of the skill in list building, IMHO, finding a good army list that fits within your allocated points.




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Dave
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:42 pm 
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(rpr @ Feb. 06 2008,15:17)
QUOTE
If everything is diviable by 25, it is so much easier to use all the points =]

Then why not just divide all the current point costs by 25? We won't have to count so high then, as our 3K lists will become 120 point lists and there won't be anymore wasted numbers.

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illuvitar
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:57 pm 
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I've taken off my shoes and socks, but I still only have 20 digits.

This doesn't help me with all my 25pt units! Where do I get the extra 5 digits from?  

See #5.  
or get a hatchet  :devil:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:01 pm 
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Then why not just divide all the current point costs by 25? We won't have to count so high then, as our 3K lists will become 120 point lists and there won't be anymore wasted numbers.


Because for those army lists that don't work in 25 point increments (About half of the Epic lists), it's inconvinient to work in half points. :D

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Markconz
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:04 pm 
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:D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:11 pm 
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"Right, this formation costs three-point-six six reoccuring points...."

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Onyx
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:30 pm 
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Moscovian - Love your work mate  :D

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Top 10 Ways to Deal with odd unit values
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:32 am 
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I have to admit in all seriousness I don't own a hatchet.... err I mean.  I don;t like everything having to be i 25pt increments.  I like having to try ot cram what I can into a limit.  Sometimes dropping a few good units to gave loads of crap ones.

Even then I only see the game size as a rough guide.  the ;ast 2000pt fantasy game I played I was about39 points under.  Enough for an extra two daemonettes.  However I choose to be under so that my units could have multiplies of 6 (slaanesh's number).

Having it easy to get to 2700 or 3000pts takes the fun out of building the list.

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