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Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PlushWombat
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:31 am 
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Greetings All,

As someone new here, let me applogize in advance if any of the things I am about to mention have already been beaten to death..but as they say...inquiring minds...and me..wanna know!

Barrage Weapons:

By and large, I think the current system for the most part works well...though I can't help but feel that perhaps the larger barrages should have better to hit numbers which would reflect the larger amount of incoming ordinance hitting the target area.

If not better to hit numbers, perhaps the larger barrages should have the disrupt effect to reflect the target's attempts to get out of the way.

Has any consideration been given to the idea of instead of multiple blast templates for large barrages; a single blast template be placed with better to hit numbers to reflect more ordinance landing in a more concentrated area?

I realize that the orginal concept behind the current barrage rules is the WW2 Massive Russian type barrage; but modern artillery and barrage systems are a magnitude more lethal...I know..I've seen their effects firsthand in Iraq during the first gulf war.

In regards to the basic Titan MRL and my personal favorite...the Quake Cannon (What can I say, we wombats really like wepaons that make big explosions!)
has any consideration been given to perhaps allowing titans to fire their barrage weapons seperately...I realize that this would violate the multiple target rules...but in the case of a Warlord armed with multiple barrage weapons shooting at another titan; the effect just seems a bit weak to me. ?

I realize that titans should be hard to damage..but a 6 point barrage under the current rules will only yield 4 possible hits (half the warlord's damage capacity)...which just seems weak to me. ?

If you could fire 2 three point barrages..while individually weaker...you would get a chance at more hits which seems to be...at least to me... the name of the game in Epic.

I could be wrong here..and in point of fact would not surprise me if I am..I've been wrong before. :p

Anyway...just some thoughts on barrage weapons.

On to my next thoughts: (or what passes as thoughts for me)

Turbo Laser Destructors:

I understand that the primary role of the TLD is as an anti-armor weapon..hence the AT 3+/AP 5+ stats. ?But....wait for it.....I can't help but think that with 2 of them being part of the Lucius Pattern Warlords loadout...8 shots should have a better chance to hit infantry units.

An energy weapon that can take out armor; should, I would think, be just as effective againts infantry...but then again thats just me.

I look forward to the more enlightened souls here (and you know who you are) providing illumination to this poor confused wombat... :p

Regards!

PlushWombat

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During the upcoming U.S. Presidential election...don't agonize over having to vote for the lesser of two evils...instead...vote for the greater evil..vote Chaos!

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:37 am 
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Titan Barrage Weapons work more like a shotgun blast. Small pellets which cover a large area doing major damage to small units (vehicles, unfantry) and is a minor nuisance to bigger targets (Titans).

The TDL fires single bolts of energy. It willvapurise ONE target. But Infantry units consist of 3-6 targest. Because of this it is less effective against Infantry than against Vehicles.
At leastthat wa smy impression before Apocalypse.
Now the TDL uses 5" templates which are capable to hit large numbers of Infantry.




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PlushWombat
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:08 am 
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Greetings BlackLegion,

I can see the sense of an MRL type weapon functioning sort of like a rather large shotgun....but what about the quake cannon?

Isn't it supposed to be similar in concept to a battleship main battery weapon...i.e. firing one large projectile?

As to TLD's I understand one shot one hit...but the standard TLD fires 4 shots..so why should a weapon that has the potential to destroy 4 armor units not be equally effective against infantry?

If we were discussing 120mm main tank rounds..which are not designed to be effective against infantry...I could see your point....but the TLD is supposed to be energy based so..in theory...should be more effective against infantry.

Of course this could just be a play balance thing.

Anyway...just my two cents worth..thanks for responding!

PlushWombat

Obscure Factoid: Prior to his tragic fall from grace, it was widely acknowleded that Horus had by far the best singing voice of all the Primarchs.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:13 am 
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Good points about the Barrage weapons, P/Wombat. Since we started playing Epic with SM1, '90 ... we always figured Epic was a hi-tech version of WWII.  And based on my study of history and real world experiences also, like you said, if Epic Artillery, gunships, etc. were as effective as in the real world ... wouldn't be much of a game ! :laugh:  :;):

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:03 am 
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Yup, Epic is not the real world :p

The 40K universe is more fantasy than science fiction, we make all kinds of assumptions for the sake of the fun imagery.  Advancing (or even charging, while waving your power sword/choppa/etc and shouting) through a hail of fire being a common image in the imagery, but one that I doubt remains in any modern infantry handbook (even if it was still around 50? years ago).

Wombat, the dual-fire mechanism might be the way to go* (though if it has BP there is the issue of the Reaver and CLP).  But I think that, inventive as it is, a weapon requiring its own special rules is less likely to be accepted.  Most people would prefer to avoid too many special rules, to avoid complication and clutter in the rules/army list.

*Back in the day when Quake Cannons were called Macro Cannons, it was the same weapon as was mounted on the Basilik, and the Earthshaker has a dual fire mechanism.
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PlushWombat
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:03 am 
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Greetings All,

Thanks for the comments, things are now a bit clearer concerning the TLD!

Now for my next set of questions/comments!

On the subject of barrage weapons and indirect fire:

As I understand it, currently, the only way to gain the indirect fire capability for Quake Cannons and MRLs mounted on titans is through the use of a carpace landing pad.

While I have no real strong feelings for or against using them, the CLP has always struck me as something one would see exclusively mounted on a battle group command titan.

Perhaps one CLP per battle group would be appropriate with an entire battle group gaining the indirect fire benefit for their barrage weapons.

That being said, has any thought been given to the idea of instead of relying exclusively on CLPs, allowing the use of a special ground unit that is a dedicated forward observer?

Such a unit would probably be mechanized and could be mounted on ?chimeras..say three to a unit with one of them having had its main armament replaced with some form of target designators...(ack...shades of the Greater Good slipping in here...cough...cough.. markerlights) ?:p

Perhaps the Guard and Space Marines already have such capibilites ?factored in to thier artillery units which is why their artillery units have indirect fire capabilites and titans don't.

If not a specialized observer unit...then perhaps an add-on that could be purchased..such as carpace lasers which would enable indirect fire abilities without the loss of a weapon mount to a landing pad.

Just a few thoughts that have been rattling around inside my tiny little wombat brain. ?:)

PlushWombat

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:16 am 
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We try to take the "fantasy" element out of Epic and stick with hi-tech WII !  :D

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PlushWombat
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:31 am 
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Ok Ok ?:D

Point taken Legion 4

So guess this means I should keep my thoughts concerning Quake Cannons launching big paint balls at enenmy formations to myself ?:confuse:

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*Warning: The Inquistion has determined that embracing the Plushness can lead to charges of heresy being leveled against you...so proceed with caution!

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:37 am 
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Well as I always say, Do What Works For You(DWWFY) !  :D  And if you want to fire paint shells (like in "Kelley's Heroes") - DWWFY !  :;):

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:50 pm 
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Wombat,

The idea of ground observers (or off-board observers like spy planes, satelites etc) is built into the indirect fire mechanism in the rule book, have a read of the indirect fire section and you'll see what I mean.  In short it has been "abstracted".

In the AMTL list the weapons are "costed" as direct fire weapons, so in order to balance the ability to shoot indirectly the CLP was adopted, as the "cost" is them one weapon system on the titan.  Think of it as both adding the communications ability to co-ordinate with spotters and also the reconfiguring of the weapon mounts to accomodate the high-arc shots involved.

The "problem" occurs when you look at the obvious candidate for this in the AMTL list.  The "Quake Reaver", 2x QC and CLP, for the same cost as an IG artillery company (650) you get 4BP MW.  So where the IG has slightly more BP, it only actually gets one more template (and perhaps disrupt).  But the titan has MW and is infinitely tougher (4VC, 6DC, 4+RA versus 5+/6+ armour), better in CC/FF, 1+ initiative, immune to suppression etc etc.

Thus the quake cannon is being reconsidered.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by titan battle group, if you mean 2+ battle titans in one formation then it's not going to happen.  Way too many points in one activation, way too tough a formation (all eggs in one basket etc).  If you mean "the army" by battle group then again I'd say it was too powerful.  Nobody wants to see an army of titans hiding behind terrain raining indirect fire on the enemy!
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Personally, I tend to think of the 'Carapace Landing Pad' as being a sortof blanket upgrade to represent a whole slew of various upgrades. Data-uplinks to orbiting starships, long-range communication and computation systems to create proper firing solutions, advanced augur arrays for pinpoint detection, etc. There's all kinds of ways you can do that kind of rationalization, really.

I always figured that the TLDs fired fairly slowly and that every one of those attacks they get represents a single actual shot. Their cruddy anti-infantry value was for much the same reason that an anti-tank recoilless rifle would have a low value. The weapon fires slowly, isn't really very accurate against infantry-sized targets, and while it might totally vaporize one or two guys, you've got a seven-man squad there which needs to be neutralized! Killing just one or two won't do a lot.

For the Quake Cannon: I've proposed a change to allow it to direct-fire MW shots as well, since it's essentially like the deck gun on a battleship. Usually used for rather indirect carpet-bombing suppression fire, but can be used to fire directly into the target when close enough. Though I don't think I got much in the way of support for the idea.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:38 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Feb. 03 2008,16:05)
QUOTE
For the Quake Cannon: I've proposed a change to allow it to direct-fire MW shots as well, since it's essentially like the deck gun on a battleship. Usually used for rather indirect carpet-bombing suppression fire, but can be used to fire directly into the target when close enough. Though I don't think I got much in the way of support for the idea.

I embraced the idea for my titan egio list, though I hanged the name to heavy concussion cannon, so that it wouldn't be effected by any changes that happen to the quke cannon.

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PlushWombat
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:07 pm 
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Greetings all!

Thanks for all the great comments. ?They have proven quite illuminating!

After giving some more thought (or what passes for thought in my case ???? ) ?I've begun to wonder if perhaps the MRL is not really a barrage weapons in the spirit of the rules governing barrages.

If the MRL functions as sort of a giant direct-fire unber shotgun of death, then mayhaps rather than assigning it a BP rating, perhaps it should recieve a set number of attacks per turn and leave it at that.

Of course the question then arises of how many attacks and how does it fit into the weapon mix as compared to the gatling blaster and the vulcan mega bolter...as in effect the MRL simply becomes another version of one of those....of course if it functioned like a longer ranged vmb with slow fire...that would be different and it would give it a niche all its own...once again just my 2 cents worth!

This would leave the Quake Cannon as the primary titan barrage weapon and with a 3 BP rating...with perhaps ignore cover and disrupt...would yield a pretty solid long ranged weapon without the problems of should it be MW or not.

As an aside...just to satisfy my curiosity...under the current weapons list rules...if you had a Warlord mounting 2 Quake Cannons and 2 MRLs throwing a 12 point barrage...how do you resolve which units are subjected to the Quake Cannon's MW attacks and which recieve normal attacks?

Regards!

PlushWombat

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Wandering Thoughts of a Demented Wombat
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:14 pm 
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Wombat, the barrage rules already state that for special rules like MW/Disrupt/IC either all the firing units must have it, or it does not take effect.

So a Warlord with MRL+QC would only fire MW barrage if it did not fire its MRL.
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