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AA weapons...
zap123
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:16 am 
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I'm pretty much always talking the Alternate Flyer rules as proposed around here. ?If I don't specifically state otherwise, you can assume the Alternate Flyer rules. ?As you recently experienced, even mediocre flyers like Vultures are basically invulnerable under the standard NE5.0 rules...and OVerlords are Uber! :)




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yogozuno
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:27 am 
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In 11 years we've pretty much done it all. All those things you guys mention, fliers shooting at fliers, elaborate flier rules with dogfights, bomber escort and all that jazz.

One of the benefits and downsides to coming fresh to a game - I haven't seen it all before, so am more likely to question why things are the way they are...

Right now, the only comparisons I can make are between the Netepic, Netepic Alternate, Epic:A and Flames of War flyer rules. The Netepic Alternate rules are very close to the Flames of War rules, and Epic:A is only a couple of steps away from those. The original NE rules seem to be just plain weird, but they give AA fire a good chance to work.

The Flames of War system is a very good abstarct system. Sadly, it probably wouldn't work very well with Netepic, since most Flames of War flyers have virtually the same stats (with a few little variations in weaponry) - to convert to Netepic would cause a lot of flyer units to lose their flavor, I suspect, and that's what doomed Epic:40k...

As you recently experienced, even mediocre flyers like Vultures are basically invulnerable under the standard NE5.0 rules...and OVerlords are Uber!
And yet, in the very next game, they did nothing and got blatted handily by Marine Devastators, not to mention the game where a single sniper stand took down a 300pt Eldar flyer...depends a lot on the situation and enemy, I suppose.

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darkangel
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:02 am 
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(zap123 @ Jan. 18 2008,01:16)
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I'm pretty much always talking the Alternate Flyer rules as proposed around here. ?If I don't specifically state otherwise, you can assume the Alternate Flyer rules. ?As you recently experienced, even mediocre flyers like Vultures are basically invulnerable under the standard NE5.0 rules...and OVerlords are Uber! :)

do not understan me wrong zap, but i like your alternate flier rules very much, especially because floaters like overloards are back in balance. we played the alternate flier rules the last 3 games. all are happy. no discussions! :D  but we played it the way that fliers can shoot flyers, because the alternate rule do not especially mentioned it...but hey, it worked!

last game some nightwings made a hunt for this chaos "dommthing"...very funny and in our opinion logical...and by the way no unit except by the nightwings could shoot at them in the first ff round, because it is so hard to hit fliers...
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zap123
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:28 am 
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No problems with people modifiying things to the way that makes sense to them.  We've always played the alternative Command rule (Ever since SM2 was released) because the normal rule seems silly to us.  Flyers shooting flyers isn't a huge issue to me either way.....personally I think the current version is more fair and balanced based on the units in the game, but I do understand that it isn't necessarily easy to understand why flyers cant shoot other flyers.  I would be far less happy about facing our Tau player with any of my armies other than Eldar though!!!

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darkangel
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:42 am 
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(zap123 @ Jan. 18 2008,06:28)
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No problems with people modifiying things to the way that makes sense to them. ?We've always played the alternative Command rule (Ever since SM2 was released) because the normal rule seems silly to us. ?Flyers shooting flyers isn't a huge issue to me either way.....personally I think the current version is more fair and balanced based on the units in the game, but I do understand that it isn't necessarily easy to understand why flyers cant shoot other flyers. ?I would be far less happy about facing our Tau player with any of my armies other than Eldar though!!!

we play the alternate command rule too ( move advance, shot ff, move charge, shoot advance) very good rule!

we have no taus..maybe that is the reason, why we have not found any unbalanced thinks in fliers shooting fliers...

but hey, in movies i remeber, i saw fliers shoots missles at fliers at long distance and that was no dog fight...
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zap123
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:41 am 
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Yeah, can't cover all bases :)

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darkangel
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:28 pm 
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(zap123 @ Jan. 19 2008,01:41)
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Yeah, can't cover all bases :)

but i think it is no problem to add a "flier shoot flier" rule as an optional rule in the core rules. someone like air fights and someone not, so all are happy!
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primarch
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:49 am 
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Hi!

You can decide whatever you like as alternate flier rules. Its fine by me. :)

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darkangel
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:01 am 
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(primarch @ Jan. 20 2008,02:49)
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Hi!

You can decide whatever you like as alternate flier rules. Its fine by me. :)

Primarch

but why not write it down to fix it?
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primarch
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:19 am 
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Hi!

Fix what? There are NO elaborate flier rules in the CORE rules. Everything is alternate or optional.

Want something different or more elaborate for flier rules, make or alter the existing alternate/optional rules.

However there will be NO CHANGE IN THE CORE FLIER RULES. They are simple, incomplete and perhaps ignored by the vast majority of netepic players. Thats what. they want.

Like I said before, count yourselves lucky there are even simple rules for fliers in core as there have been quite strong movements to make fliers ENTIRELY OPTIONAL over the years and totally remove them from the core rulebook. The compromise are the watered down ones we have in core.

Unless you can show me there has been a big shift in netepic mailing list members opinions on this over the last year or two, the core rules for fliers stay as is, warts and all.

We on this discussion may feel we need "something" more, but I can tell you as a fact we are a TINY majority. Most netepic player DO NOT USE FLIERS. So thus the supposed core rules for them are quite "simple".

Of course, you have free reign with alternate and optional rules for your game groups to use.

For those who like some "officiality" in having this or that flier rules as "core", I'm afraid you'll be disappointed as all such attempts over the last decade have been overwhelmingly cast side.

To be clear and take this as a "final" say on this, if some more "crunchy" rules for fliers are wanted (and I have always been for such rules), make them, we'll put them in. But they will be strictly alternate or optional. The simple core rule system remains untouched.

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Pettan
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Hi guys.

In this mess of flying rules and what is or shouldnt be I have a question.

What does this really mean?
CODE
Optional Rule: Defensive Aerial Fire
Since the Squats lack an effective air force their Fliers have developed extended defensive capabilities against enemy fliers. If a Flier is on Advance Orders, it may be activated to Snap Fire at incoming enemy Fliers, and if it is already on First Fire Orders it does not suffer the usual ?1 To-Hit penalty for Snap Fire.


Does it mean that the overlord airships can shoot freely at flyers or only at flyers that are charging them in CC.

Example: 2 Overlords are quite close to eachother. One of em are charged by 3 flyers. Can the uncharged snap at the 3 flyers before they get into CC or is it only the charged that can snapfire?

The word "incoming" can mean a couple of different things.

//Pete

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primarch
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:45 am 
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(Pettan @ Apr. 14 2008,14:28)
QUOTE
Hi guys.

In this mess of flying rules and what is or shouldnt be I have a question.

What does this really mean?
CODE
Optional Rule: Defensive Aerial Fire
Since the Squats lack an effective air force their Fliers have developed extended defensive capabilities against enemy fliers. If a Flier is on Advance Orders, it may be activated to Snap Fire at incoming enemy Fliers, and if it is already on First Fire Orders it does not suffer the usual ?1 To-Hit penalty for Snap Fire.


Does it mean that the overlord airships can shoot freely at flyers or only at flyers that are charging them in CC.

Example: 2 Overlords are quite close to eachother. One of em are charged by 3 flyers. Can the uncharged snap at the 3 flyers before they get into CC or is it only the charged that can snapfire?

The word "incoming" can mean a couple of different things.

//Pete

Hi!

The answer to your to your example is yes.

This means the overlord is both AA (provides defensive air cover) as well as ground fire and self defensive fire.

Its one heck of a unit....  :;):

Primarch

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zap123
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:46 am 
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It's a bit of a silly optional rule seeing Squats don't have any Flyers :D

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primarch
 Post subject: AA weapons...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:49 am 
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(zap123 @ Apr. 14 2008,20:46)
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It's a bit of a silly optional rule seeing Squats don't have any Flyers :D

Hi!

Thats kinda the point. Since it has no fliers, the floater must "double as" a couple of functions, such defensive air cover.

Primarch

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