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Epic and Range
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Well i somekind of revised the weapon stats of the wepons found in Epic (at least the Imperium ones) found here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=11378

The next step i thought about is getting rit of those "elastic" ranges E: A uses.

Wh40k ranges uses 6" steps, so Epic should use 5cm steps.
I will take 1" = 5mm and round up.
Why 5mm? In Wh40k each infantry model stands on a base 1" in diameter. In Epic each infantry mode lstands on a disk of 5mm in diameter. Voila! Direct comparisation :)

So you would have (rounded up):

24" = 15cm
36" = 20cm
48" = 25cm
54" = 30cm
60" = 30cm
72" = 40cm
96" = 50cm
120" = 60cm
240" = 120cm
360" = 180cm

So what about speed?
Human walking speed is roughly 3km/h.
A turn in epic is percieved at about 15 minutes.
That would be ca 750m in 15minutes. This are 375" (in Rogue Trader it says that 1" represents 2m) = 190cm under my range system.
Cleary this will not work :D
So what to do? You can see that weapons in Wh40k have incedibly low ranges. With a modern assault rifle you can shoot an aimed shot at 400m G3 and still expect to hit where you aim. But in Wh40k a autogun has only range 24" (= 58m).
What does this say to us? Yes, every range should be divided by 8 (well actually 6,9 or 7 if rounded but 8 is easier to calculate with).
So 187,5m divided by 8 = 23,34cm = 25cm (divided by 7 it would be ca 26 = 30cm).
Much more reasonable. :)

But then...a Chimaera has an off-road speed of 55km/h (according to IA 1).
55km/h is maximum speed off-road so a March action in epic. Combat speed (= Engage action) would be then 18,3km/h.
Now you can assume that the Chimaera woud'nt drive in a straight line. It would drive zig-zag to avoid being hit, drive around small obstacles, stop to look out for the right way, etc, which would roughly half the speed.
Thats 9km/ and still triple the speed of a human, so 75cm(or 90cm) in Epic.
Damn. :D

Conclusion: A Turn in Epic is less than 15minutes.

What about 5 minutes?
So a humans speed would be 8-10cm
A Chimera would move 25-30cm
Very much more reasonable :)

Thoughts?




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:01 pm 
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As an alternative one could consider that board-scale in current 40K and Rogue Trader are different. In 2nd edition for instance 60"+ ranges weren't too uncommon, but in 3rd/4th you rarely see a weapon with more then 48" ranges. Myself I tend to figure that 15cm=1KM or so for Epic. This means a rocket launcher reaches about 3KM. A firefight occurs at about 1 KM at most, usually shorter. A tank can march 6km a turn (15mins to a turn says ~24KM/h. Slow, but not unreasonable as a combat speed as opposed to a top-end speed). An artillery piece like a basilisk could then fire ~16-24KM depending on type, about right for a piece of mobile artillery as opposed to relatively static long-range cruise missile style launches (Which are what things like deathstrikes represent). Most of the ranges work out about right at 15cm=1KM in my experience. It puts human movement speed at ~12 KM/h when marching. Again, hardly fast, but pretty reasonable for a group of folks marching around in full combat kit along with pauses to figure out where they are and avoid being shot!

Board scale and miniatures scale absolutely DO NOT match eachother no matter what a book claims, they cannot and will not in any remotely functional game. Well, unless you're intending to have even pistols which can reach halfway or more across the board anyway! Not to mention rifles you'd need a 30 foot long board to even have a chance to not be in range with!  :laugh:
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:07 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Jan. 02 2008,19:01)
QUOTE
As an alternative one could consider that board-scale in current 40K and Rogue Trader are different. In 2nd edition for instance 60"+ ranges weren't too uncommon, .....

didn't defence lasers have a board range of 1 mile in RT days?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:49 pm 
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Also, keep in mind that distances in E:A are logarithmic, not linear.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:22 pm 
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@Hena: In Epic40k too :)
And my way of determining speed doesn't use any Wh40k mechanism (apart from range) but the actual speed given in Imperial Armour.
@Ilushya:
@Dwarf Supreme: This i was trying to eliminate :D

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:37 pm 
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I came up with a speed table. It looks...interesting.

As expected speed for skimmers looks quite insane :D




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:37 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jan. 02 2008,15:22)
QUOTE
@Dwarf Supreme: This i was trying to eliminate :D

I certainly applaud your effort, but why bother? As Hena said, 40k shouldn't determine everything for E:A.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Maybe. But i wanted to do this for a long time :) If only to see if i can come up with results wich look playable.

As you can see the speed for vehicles isn't to far off from the original speed given in the Epic rulebook and could work with the range table for weapons i posted in the first posting.

But Skimmers are a problem though.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:43 pm 
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If you eliminate logarithmic speeds and ranges, you're going to need a football field to play the game on. :D

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:44 pm 
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I thnk that there are a few errors in your table

Most leman russes move 10cm per turn, but the thunder with only 1 kilometer per hour more speed moves at 15cm.  I know you need a cut off between different brackets, but I wouldn't put MBTs in wth the infantry bracket.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:53 pm 
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I did some rounding. 1,82 is the value i divided each km/h value to determine the speed in Epic (with the expeption to and infantry walkers like the dreadnought which is triple the number)

Yes i'm a bit undetermined about if a vehicles top speed lies equal or over a certain speed level if it would drive top speed or only some percentage of it's top speed as other vehicles.

For example:
Reasonable combat speed could be 25km/h
You have a vehicle wich drives 50km/h top speed and another which drives 25km/h top speed.
Would both drive 25km/h regardless that this will damage the engine of the slower vehicle in the long run? Or would both drive 50% of its top speed, expecially the slower one to take care of the engine?

I could it do similar as with the Dreadnought and the Sentinel.
The Sentinel is a light walker. It's engine is esigned for speed but can travel slower.
But the Dreadnought's engine is designed for a slow but constand pacing.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:27 am 
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While an intruiging idea, I would be very wary of changing this, because it is at the heart of the rules and more importantly the "look and feel" of the game. You can compare the design approach to tuning a piano, where you start with the ideal pitch for a given set of strings, but then have to 'de-tune' them slightly so that all the strings play together. Here, the principle of "elastic ranges" is a device that de-tunes some of the initial designs to make the game play better, and also to allow other aspects to be modelled eg long-range artillery or strategic manoeuvers.

As for speed (skimmers; Aircraft etc) the same principles apply (for skimmers, read helecopters, which should be able to move many times faster than ground vehicles). Here, these have been "detuned" to present the caution their operators would naturally employ in an hostile environment. One of the key aspects here is the notion that troops and movement in general naturally slows down the closer you get to the enemy.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Aye, as Ginger says, speeds in Epic are 'operational' rather than 'maximum'.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Epic and Range
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Yes i will adjust this. I guess that vehicles based on the Leman Russ chassis (withthe exception of the Destroyer) and al superheavy tanks have engines designed with high revolutions to maximise power and thus be able to run a prolonged time with such high revolutions.

I guess simply doubling the calculated ranges will do the job :)

See new uploaded list in posting number 7.

With skimmers i have to do something else. I guess i have to set them on a arbitrary maximum "combat speed" of 35cm or 40cm. They could easily travel a lot faster but then they will likely hit a tree or similar obstacle because it is too fast for effective steering. If the pop-up then save speed would be an entirely different matter because there are no obstacles apart from enemy fire and very high terrain features and buildings.




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