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Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:15 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 20 2007,13:11)
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It takes a long time for some of us to change our minds. ?Actually, most people need to let things simmer quite a while before they switch opinions.

The thing is, in all my years of playing EPIC:A, I've *never* heard a complaint about the Avatar... other than that He dies too easily!

I think I've heard at least one complaint/problem with almost every other Eldar unit.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:22 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Dec. 20 2007,00:52)
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I don't like the idea of paying for an IF.  If my Guardian formation can get up in assault range, if my farseer survives, if I win the Strategy roll so I can actually use the piece.

This seems to be one of those style things.

I find it virtually impossible to kill off a Guardian formation or, more accurately, the Farseer.  With Wraithguard "bodyguards" and Fearless Farseers, there's practically no such thing as preventing an Avatar from being summoned.

Given that the Eldar player gets to place the objectives and can pull them back to the mid-board line, getting in assault range is a non-issue.  One double move and they are in range from an objective.  If the enemy places poorly, they can be on top of one and threaten a second.  By the end of the second turn, they can definitely be in a position where they have 2 objectives.

You don't have to win initiative when the enemy is forced to take you out.

Out of all the things on the Eldar list I have never heard a complaint about the Avatar.  Ever.  If it ain't broke don't fix it, especially in light of the numerous nerfs the list already took.


Like Markconz said, it's a relatively minor issue.  I'm in no way saying the Avatar is grossly overpowered.  It's just a bit much compared to the other free benefits.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:27 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 20 2007,13:22)
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Fearless Farseers

Er... Farseers aren't fearless... you break the Guardian Host and they flee just like Guardians...

And my advancing Farseers tend to get zapped by Marine Scouts now with their snipers change, so it's hard to get them up close without risk.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:14 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 20 2007,13:27)
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 20 2007,13:22)
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Fearless Farseers

Er... Farseers aren't fearless... you break the Guardian Host and they flee just like Guardians...

Yep, you're right.  I was thinking of the Wraithguard.

The point was there aren't many counters.  It was presented like it was a big "if" for the Avatar to be useful, when in my experience it's almost a guarantee.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:18 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 20 2007,13:15)
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The thing is, in all my years of playing EPIC:A, I've *never* heard a complaint about the Avatar... other than that He dies too easily!

There have been many threads complaining about the Avatar.  It was a point of contention from the moment JJ introduced the idea of a free Avatar.  It was argued over extensively.  It came up again after the list was published.  It came up again when the Eldar review started (though it was quashed by the champion).

After having been shut down the Avatar detractors (and opponents of free stuff in general) had been relegated to the occasional snipe, but complaints have continued.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:08 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 20 2007,14:18)
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After having been shut down the Avatar detractors (and opponents of free stuff in general) had been relegated to the occasional snipe, but complaints have continued.

Any links?

I meant in actual play, I've never heard complaints, either while playing Eldar or playing against them.

I'm certainly not trying to "quash debate", it's just new to me!

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tarrisvaal
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:13 pm 
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Cant say Ive ever seen anyone complain about the Avatar, certainly not compared to the cries of revenant titan cheese. I dont think its an issue worth worrying about -

At worst he turns up for a turn, shakes a stick and disappears (or gets shot), at unlikely best he acts exactly like everyone 'thinks' an avatar should do and kicks unholy amounts of hide before vanishing again. Given theres a lot of middle ground there, i dont think its something worth getting worked up about for a unit with such a short span on the tabletop.

As far as having the option to keep him in from the start goes, i like the idea in principle, but it should only be something that certain Eldar lists could allow - perhaps Biel tan as the best example because with the court, at least there is a 'squad' in the classic sense with him.

It might make for a nice alternative Biel tan Supreme commander at 100-125pts?

Maybe it could be something worth playtesting.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:51 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 20 2007,20:08)
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 20 2007,14:18)
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After having been shut down the Avatar detractors (and opponents of free stuff in general) had been relegated to the occasional snipe, but complaints have continued.

Any links?

I started to do a search of the boards, but "Avatar" turns up a ridiculous number of hits.

Adding point costs was brought up in a couple of the early Eldar review threads.  Corey was apparently very good at using his Avatar (he always played a very "in your face" Eldar style) and he and Greg both commented on its extreme effectiveness many times.  Pretty much any discussion of small point battles mentions it as a potentially overpowering force (like Francois's "minigeddon" option).  And, of course, there's always been a strong "no free stuff" contingent (a la E&C) that put the Avatar way up at the top of their hit list.

Again, I don't think it's a major issue.  Something in the ~100 point range for discrepancies is not a big deal in a 3000 point game.  It's just something to keep in mind once you reach that level of fine-tuning because over a long haul it will be noticeable.

As it is, I'm sort of in the camp that thinks the 1.8 revision might be a bit too much nerf.  I don't think an Avatar cost needs to be piled on until all that is well sorted out, but I do think it needs to be considered.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:41 am 
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And, of course, there's always been a strong "no free stuff" contingent (a la E&C) that put the Avatar way up at the top of their hit list.


I'm totally starting an anti-free stuff club.

As it is, I'm sort of in the camp that thinks the 1.8 revision might be a bit too much nerf.  I don't think an Avatar cost needs to be piled on until all that is well sorted out, but I do think it needs to be considered.

It's definitely worth bearing in mind, as there *will* be knock-on effects if he does pick up a points cost.

I would like to see the Avatar costing at minimum 50pts in the next version of the list, and potentially more if he were allowed to stay around for subsequent turns. :)


I put in a Victory Points win (We were 2-2 on objectives) against Pulsar's Eldar this evening incidentally.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:29 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 20 2007,23:41)
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I put in a Victory Points win (We were 2-2 on objectives) against Pulsar's Eldar this evening incidentally.

And the batrep is where exactly?   :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:45 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 21 2007,05:41)
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I'm totally starting an anti-free stuff club.

No free models ever for you!

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:54 am 
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Fluffwise it has always stroke me odd to have big God of War/Murder/Battle/Bloodfest to just pop up from webway and then run back there like some sucka. If Eldars have to sacrifice Young King to make one, it should at least try little harder.

But gamewise, it works great. So no change. It is game after all we are playing.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:58 am 
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(Nicodemus @ Dec. 21 2007,04:54)
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But gamewise, it works great. So no change. It is game after all we are playing.

Gamewise I'd say it works maybe not great, but ok. So yeah no change. At least not for a while, not until after the effect of all other proposals have been tested a lot more thoroughly.

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