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Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:10 pm 
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Why is he only a cruise missile?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:13 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 19 2007,18:10)
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Why is he only a cruise missile?

Because He's got a lot of work to do in a lot of battles, so He can only deliver His "presence" in quick doses... kind of like Santa Claus... except the red suit is actually spattered blood and magma... until He's needed elsewhere.

And it's just for the Tournament Scenario that He's around for "just a turn"... in a different scenario He could be marching to war leading a Host of Aspect Warriors and stick around all game.

And He's *hardly* got the range of a cruise missile... ?:D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:50 pm 
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If the Avatar were allowed to stick around for subsequent rounds... would it break the list?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Damn you Chroma.  I now have a picture in my head of an Avatar in a Santa hat, going "ho ho ho" and handing out presents (though they all look like lumps of coal)

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:05 pm 
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i've always thought that you should be able to chose, he can come in like normal or you can attach him to a formation with a farseer in it.

never tried it but it shouldn't be that game braking.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:06 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 19 2007,18:50)
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If the Avatar were allowed to stick around for subsequent rounds... would it break the list?

Yup, it's a FREE 3DC, inspiring, fearless, commander... that's really nasty in assaults.

I could see a Biel-Tan variant list/scenario option: "Great Court of the Young King", inspired by the 40k: Apocalypse datasheet, that has the Avatar surrounded by Aspect Warriors in a special Warhost with its own Special Rule.

I think BlackLegion has done it up in his Apoc thread.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Yup, it's a FREE 3DC, inspiring, fearless, commander... that's really nasty in assaults.


Then he would have to cost points too, as his being free has always been an oddity. :)

I'm just spitballing as I've always been underwhelmed by the Avatar.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:14 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 19 2007,19:10)
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Then he would have to cost points too, as his being free has always been an oddity. :)

That's a whole other kettle of coals...  :devil:

I'm just spitballing as I've always been underwhelmed by the Avatar.
Really?  I've found Him to be fantastic!  Supporting various assaults and then going toe-to-toe with things that need to be crushed... or, the other way around... I think I've had an Avatar participate (direct or support) in up to four assaults in a single game before, so, I think He's great!

And if a FREE units does *anything*, isn't that more than nothing?  *laugh*

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:15 pm 
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You folks have clearly not seen what an Avatar can do to a large formation / an expensive formation / a titan.  Watching that big fella rip through a formation of Terminators like a monkey on a cupcake is a sight to behold.  Plus he is a commander, inspiring, fearless, and FREE.  I can't imagine it not being unbalancing.  

I do like the idea of running a scenario with him leading the pack, however.  Perhaps make him the Supreme Commander if he's going to be around the whole game.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:17 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Dec. 19 2007,19:15)
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Watching that big fella rip through a formation of Terminators like a monkey on a cupcake is a sight to behold.

The only problem, to me, with the Avatar, is that without reinforced armour, those Terminators will tear Him apart... and the critical effect can be brutal!

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:19 pm 
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I've always been underwhelmed by the Avatar


Most people tend not to get much use out of him since they focus so much on their Aspects.  I've run Guardian heavy lists where I dominated the board just by virtue of the 'threat' of the Avatar showing up.  Entire formations that would normally close the gap with a guardian formation hang waaaaay back so that they aren't vulnerable to the crushing blow it delivers.

Damn you Chroma.  I now have a picture in my head of an Avatar in a Santa hat, going "ho ho ho" and handing out presents (though they all look like lumps of coal)

Firey, burning, deadly lumps of coal. :D

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Moscovian,Dec. 19 2007,19:15 ?Perhaps make him the Supreme Commander if he's going to be around the whole game.

the Avatar would never be the Supreme Commander because unlike all other god like things (c'tan) he's just what it says on the tin an avatar he not that kind of thing, think of him more as the Eldar verson of a greater Daemon.

also if you did he would need to have a points cost.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:19 pm 
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While I was highly resistant to the idea of the Avatar having a point cost (lots of other non-point-cost items occur in lists and aren't unbalancing), I have gradually come around to the idea that it would be good if he did have a point cost associated with him.

Like Mosc pointed out, the threat of him is enough to control a large area.  The 3-activation run for the Eldar, combined with an assault monster like the Avatar can turn half an army in one activation sequence if the opponent has targets in range.

I'm guessing that as a unit he's somewhere in the 150-200 range (haven't examined it closely recently).  You might think that would mean a single turn would make him worth 50-75 points.  The problem is that most CC-oriented units only get ~2 good attacks in a game and they are on the board the whole time so the opponent can take countermeasures.  With the Avatar's ability to pop in without ever being exposed to danger I'd say it's able to capture the majority of its value in that one turn on the board.

Pretty much the most egregious free unit outside the Avatar are the SCs for Chaos and Orks, which most people value at ~50 points.  The Avatar is probably capturing more like 75-150 points of value in the turn it's on the board, and it's threat provides additional value on top of that.   That's far in excess of any other army's free benefits.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:25 pm 
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The Avatar is a murder machine in my experience. Not only does he slay a heap of stuff, he soaks a lot of damage in return. Even if he dies the effect is hardly that terrible for the eldar. At least 100 points would be appropriate IMO.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Why does the Avatar return to the webway?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Well said Neal <<<<<< Despiser of 'free' stuff.

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