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Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5

 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:24 pm 
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@Hena: You need only to buy 1 SHT to get a Shadowsword, as you can swap 1 SHT for free. so 200 pts for a SS, as normal guard lists. If this is not enough, you can fill the Anti Titan with Morays. This was my intention behind this point.

(assumed to be on sustained, which is only possible for dropped grenadiers I assume) 20AP4+ is not 18 AP3+ half disrupt, there is quite a difference. even the blast markers without losses are enough to autobreak some units.

@ilushia: It?s better than Terminators, because Marines pay with list-included weaknesses for the ability to drop such "hammer"-detachments, grenadiers do not.

And on the other side, the skimmer abilites and the range of some support weapons make up the loss of arti any day.

But as always it?s personal taste. The list has everything, missing nothing (at least in my point of view) very good CC, good FF, very good FP, decent support, ability of ground assaults, good air cover, good to very good armor, now I ask you, what do you miss? what do you really miss?





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:15 am 
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Hena:

*3 Hydras is the same level as for the IG list, so I am happy to keep them as they are.

*Thanks for the catch with the markerlight platoon.

*The intent was that the O has a less effective set of burst cannon, due to the use of the plasma rifle - but perhaps dropping the 29's shots down to AP4+ might work?

I want them to be useful, but not too useful.

*Thanks for the Water Caste Envoy tip - I missed that! Although, all I can see is that they might do with losing Markerlights, but in fairness it's not that big a loss.

*The layout follows that of the T'au list - where the same kind of transport upgrades are costed in the centre area.


*Tank Company downsize - now that might work. However, perhaps 8 tanks is a good size - still bigger than a Hammerhead formation, though smaller than an IG Tank Company. (However, IG TCs can add extra tanks to the ten they get anyway, while the TC here has less options available.)

For 8 tanks, 520 would be fair, based on 650 for all 10.

I'll think about it.


Ilushia:

Do you think that capping the burst cannon at AP4 would help for the regular 29s?

I have found them to be less than wholly effective, personally - and they are pricier than Stealth suits, as it stands (and restricted to 0-1, too).


I agree with the issue of Basillisk companies - I hate seeing a bunch of 9 Basilisks on the other side of the table, not least when the Guard player can go and add Griffons, Demolishers, or whatever other kind of upgrades he or she chooses to go for.

And IG players can take as many of those companies as they like! Gah.

I hate them.


Soren:

IG can take all three SHTs as Shadowswords, and can take more than one, and get Titan Legion support, too.

Plus they have those fun Deathstrikes to play with...

...though perhaps scaling the SHTs down to 1-2 might be an option.

Seriously, the list as is cannot match the long-range firepower that a Steel Legion force can pump out - but it's not supposed to, as it is supposed to rely on Grenadiers more than IG would rely on Storm Troopers.


And quite frankly, the 29s aren't going anywhere.

From a tau perspective, they are second-rate suits - the Shas are moving on to XV25s for Stealth teams, and still rely on the Crisis suit (and its numerous variants) for their own front-line.

Plus, Marines can drop Assault Marine formations via T-hawk and ruin anyone's day - and there is no way that a formation of 29s will out-perform a formation of Terminators on the drop. And Termies can be teleported in, too!

However, what the 29s do provide is something unique to this list - and it seemed that SG didn't mind them being there when I had 7.3 posted at their site.


Oh, and thanks for noting the point I was trying to make about NINE Basilisks, as opposed to THREE, and using it as another excuse to have a go at me.

It's really starting to get bothersome.





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:47 am 
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The 4 Hydra thing is a note on the fact that the 7.3 list allows you to take the Hydra upgrade for the Hydra formation. Hence 4 hydras for 200 points in one formation.

For the stealth-things, you might consider as a downgrade to them moving from 5+ RA to 4+ normal armor (Or possibly 3+, but not sure they're quite that durable). To represent that they're tough, durable and strong.. But lack the stealth fields that make stealth suits so annoyingly hard to kill with high-powered weapons.

Was it your intention to allow the Tau formations to take Tau upgrades, or was this a copy/paste error? I might recommend not allowing them further upgrades as they're essentially 'support' formations right now, not core formations.

Soren: I get the feeling based on your posts that you're either reading an entirely different version of the army list then I am, or you're reading some things wrong. For instance, it's not possible to add XV29s to the Grenadiers formation.

Similarly there are only two skimmer formations in the whole army: The stingrays and the tetras. And the tetras are incredibly fragile scouts. The Tau Aircaste stuff can help make up for the lack of artillery in the list, but this is akin to using Warhounds enhance a Space Marine army, or fielding a Great Gargant to give an Ork list a rock-solid BTS goal. The Morays may be a bit underpriced for their abilities, but that's an issue with the Tau list not with this list specifically I think.

The Grenadiers get 1 shot at AP 4+ Disrupt and 1 at AT 4+ normal. Their maximum shooting range is also 15cm, extremely short. Relative to conventional Storm Troopers they're definitely better, but not as powerful as your stats seem to suggest. The ability to air-drop them mitigates the short range quite a bit, admittedly, but they're still short range and have to land practically in the enemy's face to be able to do anything to them at all.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:05 am 
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Ilushia:

*Those support groups have the same upgrades available to them in the T'au list as they do here - where they count as support formations, too - so I'm happy to keep them.

*Well, I'd assume the RA factors in the drones on the stands, too - the loss of First Strike is part of the indication that they have lost their stealth fields as it is.

Plus, they really are fragile on the tabletop already, in my experience at least.

*Hydras... oh, yeah - I guess it can go. 3 is enough.

*Technically, Valkyries and Vultures are skimmers, too - but they are fragile, and not too easy to keep safe, either. Which, in turn, limits their effectiveness in terms of getting them to where they need to go...





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:23 am 
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Well, I was refering mostly to things that the IG don't normally get access to. Since these guys don't seem to get any more access to those things then IG do, and people in IG lists generally don't take them instead of artillery companies!

The upgrades probably make reasonable sense, yeah.

For what it's worth: 3+ straight armor save is actually BETTER then 5+ RA on average rolls against non-MW attacks. 4+ is pretty much comparable. 5+ RA is roughly a 55% success rate. 4+ normal's 50%, 3+ normal's 66%. It just makes them more vulnerable to MW fire, which I think is reasonable as they lack the Stealth Suits' ability to be so difficult to hit (Which is most of what the RA represents in this case, as I recall). You could potentially go to 4+ with Invulnerable Save to represent the in-built drones. But these guys should really be as or less survivable then Crisis Suits as near as I can tell, from a background perspective.

The lack of Teleport and First Strike is definitely accurate as well, though. And mind that this change COULD be accompanied by a slight price break or slightly larger unit. Say move to 6 strong base, at 350 points for the lot. That would make them cost as much as a Tac Marine detachment, with shorter range but MW assaults, comparable speed but no ATSKNF. More breakable, but more lethal as well. Which I think would really fit these guys and make them stand out compared to the standard Tau stealth suits. You might also consider a move to AP 4+ Disrupt instead of AP 3+. Not sure it's really necessary though.

As an  odd kinda thought: For the ground-based Grenadiers, might you consider making them be not-scouts and leaving the Valk-mounted ones as Scouts? As it stands you can field an entire army of relatively mobile Scouts with pretty good shooting and assaulting abilities. You could perhaps leave the 'standard' ones at 200 points but drop Scouts from them and increase the valk-ones to 225 but keep Scouts. This also makes the valk ones fill pretty much the same role as they do in the IG list, while the Chimera ones fill a more general elite infantry role in the list. Again, not sue it's needed, but would help to perhaps differentiate the two formations more and make them more specialized.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:41 am 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 07 2007,03:47)
QUOTE
Soren: I get the feeling based on your posts that you're either reading an entirely different version of the army list then I am, or you're reading some things wrong. For instance, it's not possible to add XV29s to the Grenadiers formation.

Uh mixed the colums up with Regimental HQ. The markerlight upgrade is better for Grenadiers than the suits anyway :;):

But thats the only error, I think we read the same list. Maybe the difference: I do not share your happiness with mixed races-armylists.   :glare:

And yes, yesterday at studying the list the scout thingie came up in my mind..... and good idea with scout, will solve 1 of the problems.....  :blush:





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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:11 pm 
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I've just started playing a kleistian list I though the idea behind it was very cool and it allowed me to play an air cav list. I admit that I haven't used it in a game yet (I plan to tomorrow) but a issue of overpowerdness (is that a word) I have is a XV29 formation and a Grenadier formation platetfalling in a Manta on turn 1. There is not much in the game that could handle this especially if you get the first turn. Although the manta doesn't perform well in a FF it does have about 19 shots if it can get to within 15cm of the enemy. Has any one tried this yet? Is it as bad as I'm thinking?


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:33 pm 
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(Jstr19 @ Dec. 07 2007,09:11)
QUOTE
I've just started playing a kleistian list I though the idea behind it was very cool and it allowed me to play an air cav list. I admit that I haven't used it in a game yet (I plan to tomorrow) but a issue of overpowerdness (is that a word) I have is a XV29 formation and a Grenadier formation platetfalling in a Manta on turn 1. There is not much in the game that could handle this especially if you get the first turn. Although the manta doesn't perform well in a FF it does have about 19 shots if it can get to within 15cm of the enemy. Has any one tried this yet? Is it as bad as I'm thinking?

Well, considering that's something like 1375 points, it BETTER be nasty!  :laugh:  I'd be pretty disappointed if I threw more then a third of my list value into a single action and it didn't obliterate whatever I pointed it at real fast. This is like throwing two Warhounds and a Warlord at something all at once. You'd really kinda HOPE it would just fall over dead.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:39 pm 
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(Soren @ Dec. 07 2007,04:41)
QUOTE

(Ilushia @ Dec. 07 2007,03:47)
QUOTE
Soren: I get the feeling based on your posts that you're either reading an entirely different version of the army list then I am, or you're reading some things wrong. For instance, it's not possible to add XV29s to the Grenadiers formation.

Uh mixed the colums up with Regimental HQ. The markerlight upgrade is better for Grenadiers than the suits anyway :;):

But thats the only error, I think we read the same list. Maybe the difference: I do not share your happiness with mixed races-armylists.   :glare:

And yes, yesterday at studying the list the scout thingie came up in my mind..... and good idea with scout, will solve 1 of the problems.....  :blush:

I'm a bit confused on some of your comments about Markerlights as well. One of the items in your prior comments on the list included models gaining +1 to hit off Marker Lights. As I understand it ONLY Guided Missiles get better hit rate off Markerlights. Essentially it lets them fire indirectly and gives them +1 to hit, but they can only shoot things which have been marked if they want the advantage. In this list basically the only things this would effect are the stingrays and the air caste units. Well, unless I'm completely blind and he's given guided Missiles to the Leman Russ or something and I'm not seeing it. (Actually, that would be kinda neat, a list with Human/Tau hybrid technology. Leman Russ with no sponsons but gain submunition missiles or something. :laugh: )


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Those points are spent on three actions. The Manta can snipe something frightening. Then engage a seperate formation with the XV29's as a retaining action. In a straight killing contest you should win with the number of shot expecially now that I noticed the manta is now FF4+. So you get 12 CC4+ Macro, and 16 FF4+ in an engagement. I'm worried about people self planetfalling the Manta turn 1 then obliterating an entire wing of the opposing army in a huge clipping assault.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:35 pm 
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How do you get 12 CC 4+? At present the most you can field is 6 XV29s. That's 6 normal and 6 MW, as I understand it... Unless I'm reading the list totally wrong again. Now, you could load it with 6 Zashi, 8 Grenadiers and itself, which would give you something like 6 CC 4+, 6 CC MW 4+, 16 FF 4+ potentially... Which would no doubt be fantastically lethal. But seems to me that the problem here is as much with how Free Planetfall works alongside a transport vehicle (Being able to take a bunch of stuff with it to free-planetfall then unload it all at once). I might suggest that planetfalling transports follow the rules of War Engine Transports: On the turn they arrive they can unload all the dudes from it... But ALL of them have to do the same thing. So the manta lands, unloads everything, hits some target with a freakton of attacks and probably mashes it flat, but consumes 3 activations and something like 1/3-1/2 your army list doing it.

Edit: Reading Free Planetfall and the War Engine Transport rules, I'd actually guess this was more or less the way it should work, really. As the War Engine Transport rules call for the units disembarking to have to take the same action as the war engine, essentially.






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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:54 pm 
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Yeah I forgot that only the extra attacks are macro. but it is still a hell fo alot of attacks. The issue with the guenshi list it that a problem has arisen that is not an issue in the Tau list. No Tau player would ever use the manta as an assault transport as their units are pretty much useless in an assault, now that crisis suit have lost their Macro FF. But in a list that is engagment orientated this combo seems over powerful. It can be used as the mother of all thunder hawks with the added bonus of it being virtually unkillable.

With war engines you can perform different actions with them if you come in like an aircraft can't you. If I activate a Thunderhand and disembark troops then retain and activate some assault marines in it to engage I could then also activate a unit of devestators that were carried in the Thunderhawk later in the turn.

But back to the manta if I did it as you described I should be taking out 3 or 4 enemy formations in the engagement so I wouldn't mind wasting two of my own on the action . And because the Guen'senshi list has some good cheap activations I don't thin spending about half of my points on this combo is much of an issue either.






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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:10 am 
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I'd be surprised unless the opponent packed their stuff in really tight if you could manage to reach more then one formation with the assault.

On War Engine Aircraft: No you can't. The aircraft and everything onboard must do the same thing (This one doesn't even care if you're a WE or not, though we have no non-WE air transports to my knowledge). As the rules stand for Planetfall it's possible to planetfall a WE aircraft but the disadvantage is that you can only activate one thing after the planetfall occurs. With the Free Planetfall mechanic I think you should restrict them the same way Aircraft/WEs are, to avoid precisely that kinda abuse to be honest.

As the rules stand now, though, you're right. Though it can be just as absurd for Tau I think. Take a Tau Supreme Commander with 6 Crisis Suits, plus another 6 Broadsides, drop them in the Manta. Manta flattens something, retain with the SC using Coordinated Fire to have the Crisis Suits and Broadsides open up and flatten somethign else. You could almost certainly break and possibly wipe out two major opposing formations in one move this way I suspect.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:50 am 
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With war engine aircraft if you issue a ground engagement order then I understand that all the formations must do the same thing. But if you order the transport just to disembark its troops then the transported formations can do seperate orders.


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 Post subject: Ideas for Gue'senshi 7.5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:54 am 
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After embarking
or disembarking any units, the aircraft may carry out its
ground attack. Note that the limitations that apply to units
disembarking from a war engine transport vehicle also
apply to units disembarking from an aircraft (ie, they can?t
take an action on the turn they disembark but can shoot
with the aircraft ? see 3.1.3)


From 4.2.5 "Transporting Ground Units" in the section on landing.

If an aircraft does planetfall to reach the surface THEN it and each of its transported items can take separate actions. But under those conditions you'd have to retain from the starship to activate any of them. With Free Planetfall one of them gets a straight activation right then, then you can retain from it if you want. I'm just glad you can't put a Tau Supreme Commander in the Manta!






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